What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Mister Agenda]

If you wander what is good then look at the middle east and religious laws and how they treat woman and look at the society there in genera.
for one its barbaric compared to the first world and if you want a good example of what god would deem good the middle east is a prime example of 
what is good to god of the bible.

Hm? The Middle East is mostly Muslim, not Christian/Catholic.

Same God. Muslims also accept the OT and NT, in much the way you accept the OT (flawed, allegorical, etc.). They believe Jesus was born of a virgin and will return on the last day to judge the living and the dead.

[robvalue]

Form an orderly queue everyone, please

We need a ticket system. Who has one of those machines?

[Catholic_Lady]

It means that it IS immoral regardless of what some people believe. So, going around butchring infidel men, women, and children for the sole reason that they are not radical Islamists, is immoral, period. This is a moral truth.

I keep using Isis as an example because it's the big thing going on right now. But it's just an example and is not limited to them.

I agree with your point #3.

And how about pastors (not catholics, but christians) calling for killing gays and transgender people? How about them praying for the demise of people? It's the same spirit, only held in check by a thin layer of society. What about capital punishment? What's your stance on that issue?

What about catholic priests and monks abusing children, thereby ruining their lives and their abilities to trust? I live in Austria where this is a big issue. Not as big as in Ireland, but big nonetheless.

What about Brejvik, whose outspoken goal was to save christian Europe from Islamisation?

Religion isn't a safety belt that somehow, magically, conjures morality and decency from the skies. Truth is, if you want, you can justify every vileness by reading any holy book.

I have never heard of any pastor calling for the killing of gays/transgendered folks, or for the demise of people. But that is obviously very much against everything Jesus taught.

I am vehemently against the death penalty.

The abuse of Children is a very very wrong thing, and very much against Catholic teaching. The men who committed those horrible acts were going 100% against what their faith teaches.

I am not well versed on Brejvik.

I agree. Just because someone is a Christian does not mean they never do anythign wrong anymore. There are plenty of bad people who call themselves Christians, like there are bad people in every group.

---

I do find the notion that morality is completely relative and completely subjective, a deeply flawed one. And I don't even say this as a Catholic, I say this as a person who really does try to think logically. Even if I were an atheist, I don't think I could ever make sense of the notion that morality is always subjective.

This would mean that as long as a particular society or culture thinks something is moral, it is. I could never see killing infidel children or burning alive women who were rapped or cutting off a 12 year old's clitoris as ever being moral. Regardless of whether or not that particular culture thought it was, I would still believe those things are intrinsically immoral and so it would follow that I would still believe in some sort of moral truth.

Not aiming to deconvert you, but embracing universal moral relativism and subjectivity is not a requirement to be an atheist. Esquilax doesn't fit that description, for instance.

Oh I know. I have spoken to atheists who do not believe that morality is subjective.

[pocaracas]

Would you believe me if I said, most likely, society did it?


One must first accept that there is a god, before one can delve into the possibility that such a moral system was provided by said god, don't you think?
Atheists, *sort of* don't accept the existence of a god as a given in a discussion... sure, we may, once in a while, use the hypothetical existence just to show that some tale spun around it ends up making little sense...

I believe that that is what you believe.
But society can think some horrific things are moral. Slavery, segregation, etc have all been big things in the past in this very country. But it was still wrong. Look at isis, they think what they are doing is good. They are wrong.  

Indeed, it can...
Who knows what sick things we do daily that people in the future will look at in horror?
Plastic?!
Oil burning?
What were they thinking?!

------

Yes, I do think so. That is why I started this thread. To know what you guys thought about morality, since you don't think it comes from God. I have talked about my opinions because I have been asked about them.

So, there you have it: society.
The requirement of a social network of people in order for each individual to function and develop its potential.

Around the world, you«'ll find many different societies. They all work, more or less.
Our current western society may not be the best, environmentally speaking, but it has a few nice thinkers... the environmental problem may bring about the downfall of humanity itself, so it may not be such a good society after all... but it's what we've got.
ISIS is a local problem... it works, on the short term. And it is building upon the society that grew with time in that location... well... in the whereabouts.

[Esquilax]

To further clear it up for you, I think we instinctively know that treating others well is the moral thing to do. For me though, Christianity has taken it deeper and taught me *why* this is the moral path and why it is important. Also, treating others well is very general and broad. It has also helped me with the finer issues that are more specific.

Thank you for your well thought out answer. This has definitely helped me understand your perspective on the origins of morality.

There is, of course, a larger issue at play here too, which is this: how did you determine that god was good? If you're using god's morality as your epistemological road map, what criteria did you use to come to the conclusion that it was the correct map to follow? There had to have been some; you've clearly concluded that god is good, so how did you get to that point? You can't have used god's morality to determine god's morality, because the evaluation that it is good had to have happened before you had concluded that evaluation. I don't even need to point out the circular reasoning involved there, as a simple matter of chronology, you could not have come to the conclusion before you came to it.

Still would rather like an answer to this one, if you have a moment.

[Longhorn]

I guess my reply was buried under dozens of others, but I'd like to ask Lady, how can you view Jesus as a moral person-let alone a moral TEACHER-with the context of thought crime and eternal torment in mind?

Can you rephrase the question? I don't quite follow what you mean...

Sure

The god of the OT is a monster, but the concept of hell does not appear until the NT and the preachings of Jesus; it's him that introduces the idea of tormenting the sinner for eternity without the possibility of appeal after the sinner in question is dead

Jesus also endorses the idea of thought crime, equating intention with action. This idea is totalitarian in essence: a law that is impossible to follow yet must be obeyed-on pain of postmortem torment

Having this in mind, how can you view the teachings of Jesus as moral?

[Catholic_Lady]

As far as I'm concerned, whatever reason you may have for ignoring all the horrible shit in the bible, that's good with me. I want to live in a world with nice people. I much prefer you dismissing the OT as allegory than what we often get which is people making horrible arguments to justify the obvious atrocities therein.

It does raise the question why on earth you would keep the OT around if it's just a bunch of weird torture porn stories that no one should take seriously! I mean... what on earth is it all an allegory for? What could we ever learn from it except "might makes right" over and over again?

I'm just glad you are as horrified by the OT as I am. There are plenty of moral problems in the NT as well, though. For one, Jesus doesn't condemn slavery, in fact he talks about people must obey their masters and such. Not so cool.

Because the OT is not all torture stories. There are many good life lessons in the OT. It just isn't complete.

Jesus has never condoned slavery. You must be taking some things horribly out of context. Everything about the entirety of His teachings points to being against  treating people badly and that would include enslaving them.

[abaris]

I have never heard of any pastor calling for the killing of gays/transgendered folks, or for the demise of people. But that is obviously very much against everything Jesus taught.

As for the pastors - there are many videos of actual sermons on the net. This is just one of them. Kyle commenting on it is what Americans call a liberal and atheist, but the video he's commenting on is the real deal. And this guy is kind of a serial offender, since he previously gave a sermon about killing gays to cure aids. But as I said, he isn't the only one. Rightwing watch among others collects these vids.

[Catholic_Lady]

Catholics are free to read the OT allegorically, or literally. If Randy believes it is literal, he is not going against Catholic faith.

Quick question, how can the church support a literal occurrence of a claimed event, but also support belief that that event didn't actually happen?

IT doesn't. The Church leaves it up to the individual to determine it for themselves.

[robvalue]

From http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm

You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)