What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[paulpablo]

Well what if a child has abducted 14 babies and has locked them away in a shed someplace and they're going to starve to death unless you get the information out of him of where the babies are.  If I knew the child had this information I'd be willing to use violence to get the information out of him.
As for slavery, sometimes it's been preferable to take slaves rather than just kill people on the battlefield or leave them to die.

[robvalue]

I can't hope to cut through everything that's going on here, so I'm not even going to try! All I can say is it's very interesting to read. Much of Catholic doctrine is absolutely shocking to me.

I will say that "waiting to have to have sex until you're married" achieves nothing regarding reducing pregnancy at all. Even worse, it may cause people to get married earlier than they otherwise would (or at all) so they can have sex. Again, the marriage is irrelevant. It's an abstract social contract, which itself bears no more actual weight on the sexual behaviour of the people involved than an unmarried couple. It's legal aspects are mainly financial and to do with children and so on. It does nothing and says nothing about having children. It would be no different than telling someone to wait until they find their life partner.

So the less people have sex, the less children are had, yes. But telling people to wait until marriage (a) generally doesn't work (b) can lead to deceit, secret affairs and having to lie to those close to you and © can cause marriage just to have sex (d) telling people they can't do something under any circumstances, without giving them a demonstrable reason why, can just cause rebellion and for them to do exactly that. These are all serious problems. To be blunt, it's an incredible naive and demonstrably bad way to achieve the professed goal. However, contraception does reduce the number of pregnancies, and therefor the number of unwanted pregnancies, by a staggering amount. And this applies to marriage and outside marriage. It applies to people who have been told to wait until marriage but aren't going to. Classing this as immoral is a hugely damaging thought process all round, and highlights the danger of theologically dictated doctrines with no bearing on reality. It is strange you would support this (and other it seems) messages from the Old Testament which you so readily dismiss. I would be very interested to hear what exactly all the horrific stories in the OT are allegory for.

[pocaracas]

Rob... for a catholic marriage is much more than a social contract.
It is also on of their most cherished sacraments.
And you can never break a sacrament... that's why Henry VIII decided to dissociate himself from the catholics and start the church of England... remember?

[robvalue]

Sure But whatever it means to them, it is not stopping them having sex before marriage, on the whole, unless I'm misunderstanding the data. So it's not affecting their sexual activity in general, whatever else it may mean to people.

I suppose those people are not True Catholics™ that break it?

That is absolutely hilarious. I want to break god's laws, so I make a new religion. God goes, "Fair enough".

[Nope]

. I would be very interested to hear what exactly all the horrific stories in the OT are allegory for.

I would also. What possible lesson could we learn from some of the rules about rape in the bible?

[Crossless2.0]

I am of the opinion that this whole 'the OT stories are allegory' line of interpretation is just a transparent attempt to divert attention from the real scandal: that the Hellenized, largely Gentile church pulled the rug out from under the Jews, co-opted their holy book, spun it in ways that no observant Jew (including Jesus) could countenance, and made it all nothing but a pre-figuration of the Christian myth. It is literary and cultural high-jacking, nothing more, and it allows the Christian who adopts this tack to avoid having to answer for the obviously unsavory aspects of their god's character as exhibited in book after book.

This is what passes for honest Biblical exegesis in some Christian quarters. The intellectual dishonesty is disgusting.

[Mister Agenda]

Christians should discard the OT. The Jews seem to be the only people who can handle it, and they're still rather spotty.

[robvalue]

Sounds about right. The OT is a rampage of immorality, almost a "how not to do it" list. What anyone could possibly learn from it, except how to be a successful fascist dictator, I have no idea.

Town after town slaughtered, including babies and animals while the women are taken for sex slaves? This is an allegory for... erm... be in god's favour or else?

I don't know why Christians keep the OT. It seems like damning evidence against their God that they constantly have to excuse. But then, they like the handful of verses which support certain arbitrary concepts they want to keep so they have the keep the rest of the shit too.

[robvalue]

Ok let's have a closer look here at this bible passage. Click to see it. I've included the whole thing so I can't be accused of it being out of context. It's the first quote I happened to investigate, and here we are.

---

Matthew 10:1-42New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve
10 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!

26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

---

To me, this is all extremely fucked up from the start. He's sending out these guys to cause unrest, to the point where people will kill each other. I have highlighted the particularly shocking parts. This is described halfway through, and then confirmed at the end that this is Jesus' intention. I don't know how anyone can read this and turn it into something good in their mind.

Jesus wants devotion from everyone, and he's prepared to fuck everyone over until he gets it. It seems "driving out demons" involves getting people to kill their family members where needed.

[Crossless2.0]

Well, they're stuck with it -- rather like an escaping convict is shackled to a slower inmate -- because of the so-called prophesies they have adopted as part of their founding myth. Take away the OT, for instance, and Matthew becomes a pile of incomprehensible garbage.