What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Randy Carson]

Let me use a poor analogy.

Right now, some form of avian flu is spreading through the poultry farms of our country, and this disease has the potential to decimate the chicken population that we depend on for a lot of our food.

How do the farmers stop the spread of the disease?

You see where this is going, don't you?

So, if God stopped the spread of a spiritual disease among His people by culling out those infected members of the tribes of Israel, then you can say two things with certainty:

1. The people killed deserved the punishment they received (God is just).
2. The rest of the people were saved from death which may have come if the disobedience had spread (God is merciful).

Tough for those killed. Love for those spared.

Tough. Love.

What a morally upright use of his limitless power......................and it's comforting to know that he's such a competent manager of his human chattel.  I'm appreciative, though, that at least one catholic in this thread has the balls to say that killing a guy for his sperm hitting the ground is morally righteous, is just.  

I wonder, though, if you'd be willing to subject yourself to my standing behind you with a sledgehammer, waiting for you to trip up on -just that thing-......did you know that my name actually means "Hammer of God"?......We could turn that into a job title and gods will would be done through this lowly, non human sinners poor frame.

There were many times that the Israelites took folks out of the camp (or later the villages) and stoned them to death for their offenses against God.

Oh, hey...it happened here, too (his crime was blasphemy):

[pocaracas]

The fact that the church leaders continue to bang on the same key only tells us that they are clearly not getting any directions from any god interested in the most happiness for the most people.... and they never have, based on the fact that this is the same rule from 2000 years ago.

You are correct, pocaracas, and props for seeing it.

1. The Church is NOT going to cave on contraception - unlike all of Protestant denominations beginning with the Anglicans in 1930. The Catholic Church is THE Church that Jesus promised to build (cf. Mt 16:18-19), and she does not cave in to the pressure of popular opinion. That should be something that you can respect if you stop and think about it long enough.

2. The leaders of the Church are not interested in the "most happiness for the most people" and they never have been. They are interested in the most HOLINESS for the most people, and that is a VERY different thing.

Wasn't it you who defined "holiness" as "likeness to god"?
So.... you're more like god if you have sex with just the wife? weird...
But god... well, Yahweh... did have a consort... not exactly a wife.... ohh... that's before... that's not in the christian, nor jewish, canon.

[Randy Carson]

When teaching children anything in regards to religious beliefs that are the equivalent of myth, the children should be taught that there are many beliefs and that they should study before either choosing any belief in which to believe as truth or choosing to not believe in any of the myths as truth.

"Johnny, Suzie...you're both old enough now to know that mommy and daddy believe a certain set of myths about a being that cannot be proved regardless of our best efforts to do so, and we freely admit that these beliefs are both confusing and contradictory in relation to the claims of other myths being taught by other parents around the world. When you're older, we hope you will choose to embrace these fables, but we will certainly understand if you choose to become an atheist instead."

[Nope]

Religion has to be eradicated, right?

Eventually, the human species will not need deities and religion will gradually die out. There is no reason to eradicate it . People have a right to be religious if they wish

[The Grand Nudger]

There were many times that the Israelites took folks out of the camp (or later the villages) and stoned them to death for their offenses against God.

Oh, hey...it happened here, too (his crime was blasphemy):

I may give you shit for your duplicity, but at least it's honestly Catholic duplicity......makes me feel like a kid again.  So hats off to you too sir.  Now, back to helping me to explain the catholic position to the rest of these heathens and half-believers, so I can live to see an uptick in people leaving your church!  Some of them don't believe you...they don't think that catholicism -is- what you say that it is.  "Surely, it can't be -this bad-"......they say, I say we give em a cold hard dose of holy mother church.

[Randy Carson]

In the context of this discussion, if you don't want to die of AIDS or catch a disease, then don't have sex with people to whom you are not married.

Is this really so difficult?

You are one morally bankrupt asshole, you know that, Randy?

How am I the bankrupt one when I'm simply saying keep your pants on???

Catholic missionaries in Africa are teaching abstinence and that people shouldn't use condoms because they'll go to hell, knowing that people are going to follow the easy bit of advice and succumb to natural human desires on the harder point.

These people are teaching a doctrine that cannot hope to be followed, thereby dooming people to die who could otherwise easily be saved. It is abhorrent, and you are abhorrent for boiling it down to "just don't have sex, it's that easy."

Meanwhile millions are dying. Fuck you.

Oh. I see how it is. The Catholic Church is teaching people the truth about the intrinsic evil of contraception ALONG WITH the truth that having sex with people you are not married to is immoral and yet, because people embrace the former while ignoring the later, the Church is a fault?

How twisted is that reasoning?

The message is: Sex AFTER marriage. No contraception. NFP when appropriate.

[Simon Moon]

"Johnny, Suzie...you're both old enough now to know that mommy and daddy believe a certain set of myths about a being that cannot be proved regardless of our best efforts to do so, and we freely admit that these beliefs are both confusing and contradictory in relation to the claims of other myths being taught by other parents around the world. When you're older, we hope you will choose to embrace these fables, but we will certainly understand if you choose to become an atheist instead."

70% of the rest of humanity teaches their children a religion that you most probably consider wrong (full of myth and superstition). 

But you are unable to see that yours is really no different. 

And you even know this is true, because if you were born in Iran to Muslim parents, you would now be a Muslim, arguing Muslim aplogetics. You would believe Islam is true just as strongly as you now believe Catholicism is. And you would be supporting your beliefs with the same sort of flawed logic and holy text quotes.

[Randy Carson]

You are correct, pocaracas, and props for seeing it.

1. The Church is NOT going to cave on contraception - unlike all of Protestant denominations beginning with the Anglicans in 1930. The Catholic Church is THE Church that Jesus promised to build (cf. Mt 16:18-19), and she does not cave in to the pressure of popular opinion. That should be something that you can respect if you stop and think about it long enough.

2. The leaders of the Church are not interested in the "most happiness for the most people" and they never have been. They are interested in the most HOLINESS for the most people, and that is a VERY different thing.

Wasn't it you who defined "holiness" as "likeness to god"?
So.... you're more like god if you have sex with just the wife? weird...
But god... well, Yahweh... did have a consort... not exactly a wife.... ohh... that's before... that's not in the christian, nor jewish, canon.

Ya just couldn't accept a compliment, could you?

Heaven forbid anyone in the forum should see you getting kudos from me.

They might revoke your atheist card.

[Randy Carson]

There were many times that the Israelites took folks out of the camp (or later the villages) and stoned them to death for their offenses against God.

Oh, hey...it happened here, too (his crime was blasphemy):

I may give you shit for your duplicity, but at least it's honestly Catholic duplicity......makes me feel like a kid again.  So hats off to you too sir.  Now, back to helping me to explain the catholic position to the rest of these heathens and half-believers, so I can live to see an uptick in people leaving your church!  Some of them don't believe you...they don't think that catholicism -is- what you say that it is.  "Surely, it can't be -this bad-"......they say, I say we give em a cold hard dose of holy mother church.

I'm happy to present the Catholic Church straight up and unashamed.

Though the "Ask a Catholic" thread would be the better thread for it...

[Randy Carson]

"Johnny, Suzie...you're both old enough now to know that mommy and daddy believe a certain set of myths about a being that cannot be proved regardless of our best efforts to do so, and we freely admit that these beliefs are both confusing and contradictory in relation to the claims of other myths being taught by other parents around the world. When you're older, we hope you will choose to embrace these fables, but we will certainly understand if you choose to become an atheist instead."

70% of the rest of humanity teaches their children a religion that you most probably consider wrong (full of myth and superstition). 

But you are unable to see that yours is really no different. 

And you even know this is true, because if you were born in Iran to Muslim parents, you would now be a Muslim, arguing Muslim aplogetics. You would believe Islam is true just as strongly as you now believe Catholicism is. And you would be supporting your beliefs with the same sort of flawed logic and holy text quotes.

I have already responded to this classic "geography" objection. But it deserves to be re-posted, and I'll juice the formatting so it looks nicer.

Religious Beliefs are a Product of Geography

The idea that “religion is just a product of geography” sounds like a great argument for atheism. Initially.

However, just because someone is born in a place where they fail to discover the right answer about life’s important questions does not mean there is not right answer. This goes for any kind of truth claim. For example:

• If you were born in the year 1715 instead of 2015, you would probably have supported the enslavement of native Africans.
• If you were born in 2015 BC, you probably would have denied that the Earth revolves around the Sun.
• If you were born in modern North Korea, you probably would believe that democracy is evil.

But none of these facts proves that slavery is moral, that the sun revolves around the Earth or that dictators are a great idea. All they prove is that large numbers of people can be wrong.

For all of our political, scientific and ethical beliefs, we would say that even if other people disagree with them, and do not live in places that teach these beliefs as truths, that does not mean these beliefs are false. We can put forward rational arguments to defend these beliefs and then say that those other cultures who disagree are simply mistaken.

If we can do this for disputed ethical, scientific and political beliefs, then why not say we can put forward rational arguments for religious beliefs that are not universally believed but nonetheless true?