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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 10:48 am
(July 6, 2015 at 10:19 am)Napoléon Wrote: (July 6, 2015 at 9:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Thank you for the honest responses, everyone. I appreciate it.
So... are you compiling all this data into some database to be used for Xtian world domination or something? You certainly have a lot of info from all of us. I'm skeptical about where all that is going, and what it's used for 
No, no conspiracy theories up my sleeves... yet. ;-)
Haha, I'm actually just curious, really. I like knowing the thoughts of people who have views that are so different from my own, and I believe everyone has something to offer and is someone I can learn from. It's nice to be able to openly talk with all of you here. The atheists I'm friends with in real life don't feel very comfortable talking about this sort of thing with a devout Catholic like myself, which I think is unfortunate.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 10:53 am
(July 6, 2015 at 10:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, no conspiracy theories up my sleeves... yet. ;-)
Haha, I'm actually just curious, really. I like knowing the thoughts of people who have views that are so different from my own, and I believe everyone has something to offer and is someone I can learn from. It's nice to be able to openly talk with all of you here. The atheists I'm friends with in real life don't feel very comfortable talking about this sort of thing with a devout Catholic like myself, which I think is unfortunate.
Okay. Genuine question: what do you think of our thoughts? Do you find any of them compelling? Even the least little bit?
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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 10:58 am
(July 5, 2015 at 9:20 pm)Beccs Wrote: Not at all.
One of the smartest people I've ever worked with was a Muslim doctor.
I prefer to judge people by who they are, how they treat others, than their beliefs.
This pretty much sums up my sentiments as well, in the vice versa sense.
I also think the majority of people can't really control what they do/don't honestly believe in, so forming any sort of judgement on a person based on the fact that he does not believe in God, seems a little unfair.
I will say though that if an atheist came to his conclusions regarding the existence of God by really looking at both sides, doing a lot of reading and thinking, and informing himself, I will have great respect for him.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 11:14 am
(July 6, 2015 at 10:58 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I also think the majority of people can't really control what they do/don't honestly believe in...
... if an atheist came to his conclusions regarding the existence of God by really looking at both sides, doing a lot of reading and thinking, and informing himself, I will have great respect for him.
Does the second bit not contradict the first?
Why have any more respect for someone who's assessed his beliefs, if he can't really control them?
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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 11:19 am
(This post was last modified: July 6, 2015 at 11:24 am by Catholic_Lady.)
(July 6, 2015 at 10:53 am)Napoléon Wrote: (July 6, 2015 at 10:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, no conspiracy theories up my sleeves... yet. ;-)
Haha, I'm actually just curious, really. I like knowing the thoughts of people who have views that are so different from my own, and I believe everyone has something to offer and is someone I can learn from. It's nice to be able to openly talk with all of you here. The atheists I'm friends with in real life don't feel very comfortable talking about this sort of thing with a devout Catholic like myself, which I think is unfortunate.
Okay. Genuine question: what do you think of our thoughts? Do you find any of them compelling? Even the least little bit?
Initially, my answer would have been that I do not judge a person at all based on their religious beliefs. But after some folks here made the point about Westboro Baptists, creationists, ISIS, and Satanists, it really did make me step back and think. In extreme, and specific examples like those, I definitely would form some sort of negative opinion.
The Westboros are a group of like 20 people who all go out of their way to purposely bring a lot of pain to other people. Picketing funerals is particularly abhorrent.
I believe Creationists can be very good people, but as far as their intelligence goes... well, I do question the intelligence of someone who believes in the literal interpretation of Genesis and rejects all evidence of evolution, the Earth's age, etc. I wouldn't hold it against them in terms of their character, though. Just intelligence.
ISIS... well, I don't think I need to explain why I have a negative opinion about a group of people who kill everyone who holds different views.
And Satanists , even the atheist ones, though they don't worship the Devil, they still "worship" greed. I don't think I can initially have a very positive opinion about someone who promotes greed.
So the posters here who brought all this up made a good point that I had not previously thought of. Theist is a broad term, but if we were referring to very specific, and small groups of people like the ones listed above, I wouldn't consider it a rash generalization to hold some sort of negative opinion.
(July 6, 2015 at 11:14 am)Napoléon Wrote: (July 6, 2015 at 10:58 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I also think the majority of people can't really control what they do/don't honestly believe in...
... if an atheist came to his conclusions regarding the existence of God by really looking at both sides, doing a lot of reading and thinking, and informing himself, I will have great respect for him.
Does the second bit not contradict the first?
Why have any more respect for someone who's assessed his beliefs, if he can't really control them?
I don't see how it does. If a person came to or reinforced their belief/disbelief through taking the time to carefully inform themselves, I will admire them for it. :-)
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 11:27 am
(July 6, 2015 at 10:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (July 6, 2015 at 10:19 am)Napoléon Wrote: So... are you compiling all this data into some database to be used for Xtian world domination or something? You certainly have a lot of info from all of us. I'm skeptical about where all that is going, and what it's used for
No, no conspiracy theories up my sleeves... yet. ;-)
Haha, I'm actually just curious, really. I like knowing the thoughts of people who have views that are so different from my own, and I believe everyone has something to offer and is someone I can learn from. It's nice to be able to openly talk with all of you here. The atheists I'm friends with in real life don't feel very comfortable talking about this sort of thing with a devout Catholic like myself, which I think is unfortunate.
There are likely several different reasons for this. For one thing, there is the whole history of the Catholic church, with the Inquisition and so forth, that really does not make one wish to open up to a Catholic about things that Catholics have tortured and murdered people over. And then there are the modern assholes one encounters, and one may wish to not deal with their assholishness that will be the fallout from discussing such things with them. And another thing (and this might be most applicable in your case) is that many people get upset and don't want to socialize with people with whom they disagree, so it might be that some of the atheists with whom you are acquainted like you and don't want to upset you and lose your friendship. Or it could be a combination of these things, or an uncertainty about these things in connection with you (which will particularly apply the less well the person knows you). And there might be some other reasons that do not presently spring to mind.
Here, most of us are anonymous, and so people can feel free to say things that they would not normally say. Of course, some people are habitual liars, and anonymity does not change one's fundamental personality. And in the case of self-reporting, people are notoriously unreliable. That is, people do not know themselves as well as they often believe they do, which is well-established in psychology.
As for your question in the OP, believing in superstitious nonsense is going to affect the way one perceives a person. The person might otherwise be intelligent, nice, or whatever, but it is not a good thing to believe unsupported things. That is, it is not a good thing to have faith, to believe things in the absence of evidence, as that is prejudging things before the facts are known, which is prejudice. Prejudice is a vice, and since there is no good reason to believe in a god, we know one bad thing about the person if we know the person is a theist. Of course, that is only one thing, and the person might be, overall, good, but it is still a bad thing that we know about the person. If you know only one thing about a person, and it is bad, it naturally makes you think less of them than if you did not know anything bad about the person.
For more on the idea that faith is a vice, see William Kingdon Clifford's essay "The Ethics of Belief." You can read it here:
http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm
You can also read a response to such ideas at that same site, and a response to the response. If you want, we can start a new thread to discuss Clifford's essay. You can either start it yourself, or ask me to do it (if I do not seem to notice your request, you can send me a PM asking me to start such a thread).
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 11:28 am
(July 6, 2015 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: And Satanists , even the atheist ones, though they don't worship the Devil, they still "worship" greed. I don't think I can initially have a very positive opinion about someone who promotes greed.
Actually, some 'satanists' do not worship Satan as an evil entity, but rather as the savior of Adam and Eve. With the exception of the 'Job thing' in the bible, Satan did nothing except piss off god and even the 'Job thing' was a bet with god that god's 'battered child' would still cling to god and as to the pestilence brought on to Job, it was not made clear in the bible whether god or Satan initiated the destruction of Job's lifestyle.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 11:30 am
(July 6, 2015 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't see how it does. If a person came to or reinforced their belief/disbelief through taking the time to carefully inform themselves, I will admire them for it. :-)
But why would you admire them?
My point is: if you are to admire someone for taking the time to assess their beliefs, then surely that is because they have some semblance of control over them. Why would you respect or admire someone otherwise? If their beliefs were not open to change, if the person did not have some effect or control over how informed they are (which would consequently affect belief), then surely them spending the time to assess their beliefs in the first place would be a futile exercise, not worthy of respect.
If you are to admire someone for scrutinising their own beliefs then it is surely because they are open to having their mind changed, at least to some degree. Surely the act of informing oneself, is the controlling factor you imply doesn't exist.
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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 11:36 am
(July 6, 2015 at 11:19 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ...
I believe Creationists can be very good people, but as far as their intelligence goes... well, I do question the intelligence of someone who believes in the literal interpretation of Genesis and rejects all evidence of evolution, the Earth's age, etc. I wouldn't hold it against them in terms of their character, though. Just intelligence.
...
I don't see it as any more silly than believing that the bread and wine in the Eucharist ceremony literally turns into the body and blood of Jesus, which is the official doctrine of the Catholic Church to this day. The magic is called " transubstantiation."
Also, most creationists have been indoctrinated into their beliefs the same as you were indoctrinated into yours, and the typical creationist does not look at evolutionary theory closely because it is viewed as an evil doctrine. In other words, although the evidence is there, they do not look at the evidence, and so they are not convinced (how could they be convinced by evidence that they do not look at?). If people do not look at the evidence, then they do not have the evidence themselves from which to judge the matter. It is the same as when someone refuses to look at reasoning for why "faith" is bad, and so they never come to the conclusion that having faith is immoral.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: Your perception of theists
July 6, 2015 at 11:38 am
(This post was last modified: July 6, 2015 at 11:38 am by Longhorn.)
(July 6, 2015 at 10:19 am)Napoléon Wrote: (July 6, 2015 at 9:48 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Thank you for the honest responses, everyone. I appreciate it.
So... are you compiling all this data into some database to be used for Xtian world domination or something? You certainly have a lot of info from all of us. I'm skeptical about where all that is going, and what it's used for
Um. Of course she isn't.
That's my fucking job!
(But change xtian to Bosnian)
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