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Objectifying women
RE: Objectifying women
Quote:I'd have believed you if said you'd simply misunderstood the original statements. But now you've denied the facts, the statistics, and even the damn dictionary. We've explained and re-explained the point at hand, and yet you keep 'misinterpreting'. You are flat out lying now.
The thing is, I agree with pretty much everything you say. In fact, if you actually listened to what my point was instead of assuming I was victim blaming, I bet you'd even agree with it too. All my points in this thread have been focused on reducing the risk of women being raped outside, on their way home, etc. You categorically denied that there were things women could do to reduce the risk of being raped (like getting a life home, or walking in a group), yet I don't think you even understood what I was saying; instead you just assumed I meant that if a woman got raped, it was her own fault and that if only she'd done x,y,z she wouldn't have been. That wasn't my point, it will never be my point.

Quote:So, why should I pay any attention to say, Saerules, who flat out admitted she was trolling and made absolutely no bones about the fact that she was victim blaming? She and Dotard were the only ones honest enough to admit it. Godhead still hasn't read the articles I provided, so why should I continue paying him any attention?
This is one thread, in a forum which has several thousand of them. Saerules has contributed rational discussion to many threads; as has Dotard. The ignore feature is being abused because in one thread, on one particular subject, you disagree with them. It wasn't meant for that. I don't see why people can't simply ignore posts by reading who wrote it, and thinking "Ok, well I don't want to read that one".

Quote:Though I am amused that you'd go so far as to abuse your moderator powers to attack me, because for the record, I didn't ignore Godhead because of this thread, but because the idiot hasn't given an honest answer to a question anywhere in the forum, so why should I continue debating it?
I didn't abuse any moderator powers. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote:I doubt you've read the articles either. You are bitching and whining about being 'ignored' and 'misinterpreted' and you haven't actually read any of our mountains of supporting evidence.
No, I didn't read the articles, because I already agree with your points and what the articles are based on. My area of discussion here was always on reducing the risks; not anything to do with clothing, victim blaming, etc.

Quote:I ignore hypocrites and fundies. If you don't like that, ban me.
We have a discussion community here. You are not discussing by any definition of that word. You are giving your opinion and then distorting everything the opposition says, to the point where you cannot defend yourself against their continually re-explanation and are forced to ignore them. Change the attitude, because you won't be making many friends around here if you don't.
RE: Objectifying women
Seriously, to some of you (I can't quite remember specific people), I'm gonna pray that you never have to be in a position where you're proven wrong and have to eat your words. Don't think that you're exempt from rape because you're men, it happens to men too. I used to think somewhat like you also, until I was proven wrong.

(sigh) And attitudes like these are the reason why so many rape victims never report their rapes, because they know that they will be held "responsible" (aka blamed) for it.
RE: Objectifying women
(July 18, 2010 at 7:48 pm)gameslover Wrote:
Quote:The purpose of that statement was to illustrate that I am not perfect nor unchanging.


That's not how it works. You can't just do whatever you want and expect people to ignore it because you're human. I'm a human being as well, I get frustrated, but I'm not calling people "stupid" or "morons" or anything like that.

First off, I don't give a fuck what you feel over it - if you are so petty and rigid as to be unable to take a few insults peppered among logic, then I feel quite justified in saying the internet, human society and rational discourse with anyone except for those who agree exactly with you is not for you.

This is an internet forum. Get the fuck over it.


(July 18, 2010 at 7:48 pm)gameslover Wrote: When that happens, people usually don't seem to care, they just roll their eyes for they know they have nothing to prove.
Are you sure you live on Planet Earth?


(July 18, 2010 at 7:48 pm)gameslover Wrote: People get upset when they can't prove themselves.
People also get upset when they stub their toes, have their dog die or be the unwilling strawman of an opposition so intent on being right that they've lost all perspective.

Your hatred is pretty toxic to me, as for others, I wonder if they feel the same.

(July 18, 2010 at 7:48 pm)gameslover Wrote:
Quote:But what lead up to it? Was the rapist mentally ill, poorly educated, allowed to run rampant, indulging in criminality beforehand?

What does that have to do with the victim? The victim can't control any of that, there's nothing they can do be "responsible", so why bring it up?
It was cited as an example for society to focus on in order to reduce the risk of others performing rape. Goes to show you cannot grasp the how these systems interact.

(July 18, 2010 at 7:48 pm)gameslover Wrote:
Quote:Was the victim walking through an alley against their better judgment, warned by others, aware of their surroundings, cautious?

It's been shown time and time again that "alley" type stranger rape is rare. Did you not read anyone's messages? It's more dangerous for you to be inside your house with your relative. Why didn't you bring that up?
Lock the door. Know your neighbors. Consider that criminals will do anything to get in. The possibilities are boundless - there are always things you can do to make it more difficult for a criminal to get what they want, and most criminals cannot be bothered to crack a tough nut.

(July 18, 2010 at 7:48 pm)gameslover Wrote: Like I saw someone else say, that's like asking if a burn victim was standing on a ladder. Nothing to do with each other.
LOL wat?

(July 18, 2010 at 7:48 pm)gameslover Wrote:
Quote:The world is not black nor white nor shades of graym but is of color.

That doesn't mean black and white don't exist (as in cases like rape).
Then you have no sense of perspective. Thank you for clarifying.

(July 18, 2010 at 7:48 pm)gameslover Wrote: Yes it does matter. That is why people grant "dying wishes" for people. That is why people hold funerals for people that are already dead and wouldn't know if the funeral was taking place or not. That is why people have the right to decide what they want done with their bodies/where they want to be buried when they die. That is why so many people just won't speak ill of the dead. Dead peoples' wishes (or whatever they had before they died) matter.

Many people speak ill of the dead all the time. People hold funerals to grieve, not because the dead person is getting their jollies from beyond the grave.

Only reason one grants dying wishes is to make those last moments of that person bearable, doesn't mean you have to do it, only give the appearance of it.
RE: Objectifying women
Gameslover -

We're not saying that we won't ever get raped. Who said that? Or are you just assuming that someone said it? Also, your post gives something away about you. You actually think that being raped would necessarily result in the victim thinking like you. Oprah Winfrey (among many, many others) is an example of someone who does not think like you. She was raped repeatdly by a relative, and she herself has said that after feeling sorry for herself for some time, she decided to pick herself up, and take personal responsibility for herself. Look at her now. She understands the difference between personal responsibility, and blame, and has said so in interviews. And I know a girl who was raped, and guess what, this is her attitude :

I was careless, and therefore I share responsibility for what happened. I acknowledge that I contributed to what happened
I'm not to blame
I will from now on take responsibility for everything that happens to me, even if it's not my fault

She now takes responsibility for everything. Recently she lost her job and it wasn't her fault at all, and she felt sorry for herself, before feeling disgusted at such an attitude, and she promptly picked herself up. She detests the attitude that one has no responsibility just because they're the victim. If she was here she'd be disgusted with you.

So please don't preach to us about what a victim thinks, and we know the difference between responsibility and blame, as do many victims. I'm so sorry that you were unfortunate enough to be raped, but you are the one who owns your life, not the perpetrator. If you own a car and someone destroys it, you are responsible. Why? Because the car belongs to you, not the person who destroyed it. They can walk away and laugh, you can't. Pick yourself up, think about the difference between responsibility and blame, and take some (responsibility). Your life and your safety belongs to you, not some punk who might rape you. The rule of thumb is : If you own it, you're responsible for it. Think of your safety as as if it was your son or daughter. It's yours, do what you can to look after it. And if you get it wrong, at least you had the right attitude and you tried. No one here is blaming you, we're trying to help you. I'm sorry to be so harsh and I didn't want to lecture you but sometimes that's how it is. And don't have a go at us as no one here has raped you. The event is over now, and you have an opportunity to think clearly. We all have problems, and we must own them. I have a big issue in my life which has haunted me for years (worse than yours), you're not the only one with problems. Anyone who messes with you is an idiot, and is failing to take responsibility for their behaviour, but you shouldn't let that make you fail in your responsibility to do your best to look after yourself. Is there anything that will definitely reduce your chances of being raped? Who knows, but you can try, and that's all we're saying. I don't even care about the details, just as long as you acknowledge that no rapist is going to try and reduce the odds, only can make that attempt.
RE: Objectifying women
Quote:First off, I don't give a fuck what you feel over it - if you are so petty and rigid as to be unable to take a few insults peppered among logic, then I feel quite justified in saying the internet, human society and rational discourse with anyone except for those who agree exactly with you is not for you.

Your rage is awfully cute. You're the one sitting here getting your panties in a knot over the fact you've been disproven by people who know better than you, I suggest you take your own advice.

Quote:This is an internet forum. Get the fuck over it.

Practice what you preach.

Quote:Are you sure you live on Planet Earth?

Quite sure.


Quote:People also get upset when they stub their toes, have their dog die or be the unwilling strawman of an opposition so intent on being right that they've lost all perspective.

That last part-no. See, when people know they have nothing to prove, they don't tend to get that upset. Look at me-I've been doing exactly that.

Quote:Your hatred is pretty toxic to me, as for others, I wonder if they feel the same.

What hatred? Exactly what about my message screams "hatred" to you? The part where I'm rationally making points and not cursing anyone out or calling anyone names?

Quote:It was cited as an example for society to focus on in order to reduce the risk of others performing rape. Goes to show you cannot grasp the how these systems interact.

Then it was off-topic as our discussion was about the victim, not society.

Quote:Lock the door. Know your neighbors. Consider that criminals will do anything to get in. The possibilities are boundless - there are always things you can do to make it more difficult for a criminal to get what they want, and most criminals cannot be bothered to crack a tough nut.

Most of those "criminals" are people you know. What's locking a door or knowing your neighbors gonna do against a relative that you live with?

Quote:LOL wat?

Figures you wouldn't get it.

Quote:Then you have no sense of perspective. Thank you for clarifying.

I'd say the same for you seeing as how you can't seem to understand that some, not all some things (such as rape) are a matter of black and white.


Quote:Many people speak ill of the dead all the time. People hold funerals to grieve, not because the dead person is getting their jollies from beyond the grave.

Only reason one grants dying wishes is to make those last moments of that person bearable, doesn't mean you have to do it, only give the appearance of it.

And those people are often vilified, what's your point? Exactly, the person isn't getting their jollies from beyond the grave, but you still grieve anyway, meaning their honor matters whether the corpse itself cares or not. And no, it's not about making their last moments bearable since plenty of those "dying wishes" are things the person won't even live to see. My grandmothers' was for my mom to have children-she never would see it happen, but my mom did it anyway because it matters, whether my grandma can see it or not.
RE: Objectifying women
(July 18, 2010 at 3:24 pm)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: Burka porn, that's got to be a pretty niche market...
I wouldn't be surprised to find it actually exists though. Anything forbidden, like what's beneath burkas in an overly fearful of bodies society, might be a common secret arousal for people immersed in that society.
I'm really shitty at giving kudos and rep. That's because I would be inconsistent in remembering to do them, and also I don't really want it to show if any favouritism is happening. Even worse would be inconsistencies causing false favouritisms to show. So, fuck it. Just assume that I've given you some good rep and a number of kudos, and everyone should be happy...
RE: Objectifying women
I stated on no uncertain terms that I would lock this thread if insults were flung again.

Synackeon, for the use of word moron, when I specifically forbade it for the this thread to stop being heated and actually be a reasoned discussion. I do not make idle threats.

Gamerslove, I appreciate you coming from rage_free to share your experience and agree with your arguments 100%, unfortunately the same thing that happened to IHM is happening to you and it has to stop.

I think we can all admit this discussion has gone on far to long. It's time to end.

If you have a problem with my decision, take it up with the mods and we'll all discuss it.

But for now, it's over, and stick a fork in me, it's done.
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

::Blogs:: Boston Atheism Examiner - Boston Atheists Blog | :Tongueodcast:: Boston Atheists Report



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