Ask a Bible college Student

[Catholic_Lady]

It's not the embryos that didn't stick that's the problem. Not sticking is a natural death and that's just what happens sometimes with trying to conceive. It's the ones that never get a chance in the first place and just get discarded like trash. Those are human beings.

Unfortunately, as Faith No More mentioned earlier, part of IFV is creating more embryos than you need in order to get a small handful of potentially viable ones.  But, the embryos that get discarded are the ones that were likely never viable in the first place.  And if they were never conceived in the first place, they would just be eggs released...never even given a chance to become anyone.  

I mean, they could just do one at a time and try with that one. And if it doesn't work, create another and try with that one... and so on and so forth. It may not be as quick/efficient, but it's giving more respect to the new lives they create that way.

[Catholic_Lady]

No sir you are mistaken.

But still, why bother with baptism if the Adam & Eve story is fictional?  The basic tenet of Christianity is that every human is born with Original Sin due to Adam & Eve's disobeying God, and only accepting Jesus as your savior and being baptized to wash away Original Sin can you reach Heaven.  The whole point of needing Christianity falls apart if you say that the Adam & Eve story is fictional, since anyone could get to Heaven just by being a good person to others.

I actually posted a little bit about baptism on a different thread just a few days ago, if you wanna take a look. May help shed some light on the issue:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-45905-page-6.html

Post #58

[Huggy Bear]

Ugh. It's tempting not to use the story of my son who died at 23 weeks gestation when I see comments like these....

I am sorry for your loss. I know I would have been upset had I lost my own pregnancy because it was wanted. But I still do not view fetuses as people until certain criteria are met, most of which happens in the third trimester. Viability outside the womb, higher brain function, etc.

People are in no position to determine who qualifies as being a person.

The crazy thing is you're fine with a fetus not having the status of a person, yet a corporation has the status of a person and they exist only on paper and meet none of the requirements you listed.

[LadyForCamus]

Unfortunately, as Faith No More mentioned earlier, part of IFV is creating more embryos than you need in order to get a small handful of potentially viable ones.  But, the embryos that get discarded are the ones that were likely never viable in the first place.  And if they were never conceived in the first place, they would just be eggs released...never even given a chance to become anyone.  

I mean, they could just do one at a time and try with that one. And if it doesn't work, create another and try with that one... and so on and so forth. It may not be as quick/efficient, but it's giving more respect to the new lives they create that way.

Well...that is KIND of what they do. The process of harvesting the eggs takes months and months, involving almost daily doctor's appointments, hormone replacements, and daily shots in order to stimulate the ovaries to produce a large enough number of eggs for potential conception. (My girlfriend got 16 eggs out of her first round, and those 16 eggs only yielded 5 viable embryos for transfer in the end.

And then they do it at a clip of like, 1-2 embryos per IVF transfer. So, my friend did 2, 2, and then 1, for a total of all five embryos over the course of three transfers. The nice thing is, the embryos are frozen so she could choose to do a transfer whenever she had the time. She is a school teacher and it was hard to get the time off of work for so many doc appts, so she did her transfers over the summer. And of course, just like any other pregnancy, you have to wait 3-4 weeks after each transfer to see if the embryo implanted, and if it didn't, you have to wait to get your period before moving on to the next one.

But as I said, the embryos are frozen and can be used at a woman's discretion, so I don't think as many embryos are typically getting "wasted" or "discarded" as you think. And a woman can always choose to donate her embryos if she decides she doesn't want to try anymore. My girlfriend considered using donor eggs after 3 failed IVF's. So, maybe it's not as wasteful of a process as you had thought?

P.s. I am not a fertility doctor. I am only relaying the experience of my friend. If I said anything factually or scientifically incorrect, please, someone with more knowledge on the subject, go ahead and correct me! [emoji39]

[Rosie_Rivets]

I am sorry for your loss. I know I would have been upset had I lost my own pregnancy because it was wanted. But I still do not view fetuses as people until certain criteria are met, most of which happens in the third trimester. Viability outside the womb, higher brain function, etc.

People are in no position to determine who qualifies as being a person. 

The crazy thing is you're fine with a fetus not having the status of a person, yet a corporation has the status of a person and they exist only on paper and meet none of the requirements you listed.

Yeah, actually, I think we are in a position to determine who qualifies for personhood status since we're the only ones making definitions. And I didn't have a hand in drafting up the law on corporations, so it's not like I agree with it.

[Tiberius]

Why do you believe the bible is true?

I believe the Bible is true because I believe in the God spoken about in the Bible. I have experience the power of God, and He has transformed my life. There is a verse that says that all Scripture (the Bible) is God-breathed, which means that it is inspired by God. 

Also, looking objectively at the New Testament as a historical document, It was written close to the time of the events it talks about, and the earliest copy we have found is within 30 years of the original writing. There are 5800 historical copies found, and the accuracy compared to the originals is incredible. The New Testament as a historical document is historically reliable, which is a good reason to me to believe in it. Internally, it is consistent, even though there are many writers who contributed to the overall Bible who wrote over a long period of time.

"I believe in the Bible because it speaks about a God I believe in, and the Bible says that it was inspired by God."

That's some impressive circular reasoning you got there.

[Whateverist]

I think circularity ceases to be a problem when you're dealing with the supernatural. So funny to hear apologists insist on a first cause when they themselves seem to think the whole cause/effect relationship was just God's whim.

[vorlon13]

I am sorry for your loss. I know I would have been upset had I lost my own pregnancy because it was wanted. But I still do not view fetuses as people until certain criteria are met, most of which happens in the third trimester. Viability outside the womb, higher brain function, etc.

People are in no position to determine who qualifies as being a person.

The crazy thing is you're fine with a fetus not having the status of a person, yet a corporation has the status of a person and they exist only on paper and meet none of the requirements you listed.

And what am I to think as an outsider looking at the religious folks with (by their oft stated beliefs) a specific definition of a person clearly delineated in their Holy Scriptures, and that definition is almost universally ignored ?   And that ignorance of their Scriptures is compounded by noisy demonstrations, fund raising campaigns, and overt attempts at having their false and essentially disordered definition of personhood codified in secular law ??

(and let's review something here:   heresy denotes the formal denial or doubt of a core doctrine of the Christian faith)


And we see those same folks, with their manifest heretical take on a core doctrine; the definition of 'person', are nevertheless also out proselytizing for new members in all manner of ways!

What can a heretic actually offer me in regards to my personal Salvation through belief in Jesus Christ that I can't get from an 'open and notorious' Satan worshipper?   What would be the difference ?

[brewer]

Hey Emzap. If you do come back could you tell me how your life was "transformed" by god or religion or the bible? What was your life prior to these entities? Was there a life prior to, meaning from birth, was there something other than god/bible/religion in your upbringing?

[Minimalist]

I am sorry for your loss. I know I would have been upset had I lost my own pregnancy because it was wanted. But I still do not view fetuses as people until certain criteria are met, most of which happens in the third trimester. Viability outside the womb, higher brain function, etc.

People are in no position to determine who qualifies as being a person.

The crazy thing is you're fine with a fetus not having the status of a person, yet a corporation has the status of a person and they exist only on paper and meet none of the requirements you listed.

Only people are in the position to make such a determination since you can't provide evidence that your god is real.

I do totally agree with your contempt for the idea that a "corporation" is a person, though.