"Hail Satan?" (2019)

[Belacqua]

There were no self-identified Satanists before LaVey. Satanism, as a philosophy, was not a thing before LaVey. Before the CoS, Satanist was used like an insult, comparable to "pagan" or "heathen." If you're so puzzled by all of this, visit the CoS website. Read The Satanic Bible and The Satanic Scriptures.

A useful source that might be less self-regarding than the site of a particular sect:

Satanism, Magic and Mysticism in Fin-de-siècle France; R. Ziegler

on Amazon here

Maybe you're using the term Satanist in a very specific sense, to refer only to a certain type who claim that they are the true Satanists and those who came before don't deserve the title. This would be in keeping with different versions of other religions who say they are the true and only group that deserve the title, while their predecessors and competitors are fakes. 

I'm using it in the way that the sources I refer to above use it: more generally for groups of people who worship Satan. Of course there are variations, but I'm not devoted enough to one flavor to deny others use of the title.

[EgoDeath]

Wow the excuses you keep making. I have provided endless sources for you and you admit you wont even look into them. These are the highest ranking members that believe these things not a few low rank members.  Yes technically they are atheists as they dont believe in a god but they still believe they can change reality with magic, and believe in ghosts and a spirit world and reincarnation and pseudoscience, etc

Excuses? Give me some links and I'd be happy to look at them. On one end you say they are atheists, but then you say they believe in supernatural beings? Yet, the CoS website states explicitly that Satanic philosophy has nothing to do with supernatural beings. I don't know how else I can explain it to you, Satanism is an atheistic philosophy, period. And even if some members of the CoS said they believe in summoning demons, I'd highly doubt the sincerity of those claims. You seem to miss over and over the tongue-in-cheek sort of showmanship often employed by Satanists - it's something LaVey did frequently, even though he was undoubtedly an atheist.

If you're not even willing to admit you may be overlooking that, this conversation doesn't need to continue. I know several people, in real life, who consider themselves Satanists and I've never heard anyone say they believe in demons or summoning spirits. Sounds like nonsense to me.

---

There were no self-identified Satanists before LaVey. Satanism, as a philosophy, was not a thing before LaVey. Before the CoS, Satanist was used like an insult, comparable to "pagan" or "heathen." If you're so puzzled by all of this, visit the CoS website. Read The Satanic Bible and The Satanic Scriptures.

A useful source that might be less self-regarding than the site of a particular sect:

Satanism, Magic and Mysticism in Fin-de-siècle France; R. Ziegler

on Amazon here

Maybe you're using the term Satanist in a very specific sense, to refer only to a certain type who claim that they are the true Satanists and those who came before don't deserve the title. This would be in keeping with different versions of other religions who say they are the true and only group that deserve the title, while their predecessors and competitors are fakes. 

I'm using it in the way that the sources I refer to above use it: more generally for groups of people who worship Satan. Of course there are variations, but I'm not devoted enough to one flavor to deny others use of the title.

That some author refers to obscure occult practices in France as "Satanism" doesn't make it so. Satanism was not a thing until LaVey created it as a philosophy. I don't know how many times I can repeat this. No one before LaVey called themselves "Satanists." It was a term that was used similar to "Pagans" or "heretics," almost exclusively by Christians.

[prhill]

Wow the excuses you keep making. I have provided endless sources for you and you admit you wont even look into them. These are the highest ranking members that believe these things not a few low rank members.  Yes technically they are atheists as they dont believe in a god but they still believe they can change reality with magic, and believe in ghosts and a spirit world and reincarnation and pseudoscience, etc

Excuses? Give me some links and I'd be happy to look at them. On one end you say they are atheists, but then you say they believe in supernatural beings? Yet, the CoS website states explicitly that Satanic philosophy has nothing to do with supernatural beings. I don't know how else I can explain it to you, Satanism is an atheistic philosophy, period. And even if some members of the CoS said they believe in summoning demons, I'd highly doubt the sincerity of those claims. You seem to miss over and over the tongue-in-cheek sort of showmanship often employed by Satanists - it's something LaVey did frequently, even though he was undoubtedly an atheist.

If you're not even willing to admit you may be overlooking that, this conversation doesn't need to continue. I know several people, in real life, who consider themselves Satanists and I've never heard anyone say they believe in demons or summoning spirits. Sounds like nonsense to me.

---

A useful source that might be less self-regarding than the site of a particular sect:

Satanism, Magic and Mysticism in Fin-de-siècle France; R. Ziegler

on Amazon here

Maybe you're using the term Satanist in a very specific sense, to refer only to a certain type who claim that they are the true Satanists and those who came before don't deserve the title. This would be in keeping with different versions of other religions who say they are the true and only group that deserve the title, while their predecessors and competitors are fakes. 

I'm using it in the way that the sources I refer to above use it: more generally for groups of people who worship Satan. Of course there are variations, but I'm not devoted enough to one flavor to deny others use of the title.

That some author refers to obscure occult practices in France as "Satanism" doesn't make it so. Satanism was not a thing until LaVey created it as a philosophy. I don't know how many times I can repeat this. No one before LaVey called themselves "Satanists." It was a term that was used similar to "Pagans" or "heretics," almost exclusively by Christians.

I gave you ALL the sources and these members are TOP ranking members who believe in magic healing people, killing people, making girls lust for them, they believe in spirit guides, demons, reincarnation, pseudoscience. Facts  are facts. Ignoring them does not make them not true.

[EgoDeath]

Excuses? Give me some links and I'd be happy to look at them. On one end you say they are atheists, but then you say they believe in supernatural beings? Yet, the CoS website states explicitly that Satanic philosophy has nothing to do with supernatural beings. I don't know how else I can explain it to you, Satanism is an atheistic philosophy, period. And even if some members of the CoS said they believe in summoning demons, I'd highly doubt the sincerity of those claims. You seem to miss over and over the tongue-in-cheek sort of showmanship often employed by Satanists - it's something LaVey did frequently, even though he was undoubtedly an atheist.

If you're not even willing to admit you may be overlooking that, this conversation doesn't need to continue. I know several people, in real life, who consider themselves Satanists and I've never heard anyone say they believe in demons or summoning spirits. Sounds like nonsense to me.

---

That some author refers to obscure occult practices in France as "Satanism" doesn't make it so. Satanism was not a thing until LaVey created it as a philosophy. I don't know how many times I can repeat this. No one before LaVey called themselves "Satanists." It was a term that was used similar to "Pagans" or "heretics," almost exclusively by Christians.

I gave you ALL the sources and these members are TOP ranking members who believe in magic healing people, killing people, making girls lust for them, they believe in spirit guides, demons, reincarnation, pseudoscience. Facts  are facts. Ignoring them does not make them not true.

You never linked me to any sources.

[prhill]

I gave you ALL the sources and these members are TOP ranking members who believe in magic healing people, killing people, making girls lust for them, they believe in spirit guides, demons, reincarnation, pseudoscience. Facts  are facts. Ignoring them does not make them not true.

You never linked me to any sources.

I TOLD you the magazines AND the videos and podcasts.  If you are not interested in the truth then you have been wasting my time.

[EgoDeath]

You never linked me to any sources.

I TOLD you the magazines AND the videos and podcasts.  If you are not interested in the truth then you have been wasting my time.

Okay, so if you know them off the back of your hand like that, why not just shoot me some links? I'm not going to sit through a 2 hour podcast to find one instance of them mentioning summoning demons.

And still, even if specific members of CoS believe in something Rupert Sheldrake made a claim about, this still says ZERO about CoS official stance on supernatural beings.

[Belacqua]

That some author refers to obscure occult practices in France as "Satanism" doesn't make it so. Satanism was not a thing until LaVey created it as a philosophy. I don't know how many times I can repeat this. No one before LaVey called themselves "Satanists." It was a term that was used similar to "Pagans" or "heretics," almost exclusively by Christians.

Satanism "was a thing" at various times. I agree that LaVey organized it in a way that it had never been organized before. 

It was indeed a term used by Christians to attack people they suspected. There's a long interesting book from 1896 devoted to working out who really is and isn't a devil-worshipper. 

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Devil-Worship_in_France

It's true that Masons and others were accused of being Satanists, but weren't really. On the other hand, there were people who worshipped Satan, who were known as Satanists, and didn't reject the label. 

Again, I think you are using a very specific definition of the word which sees LaVey type people as the only true Satanists. This is of course the definition we would expect to find on the web site of LaVey's organization. Still, people who aren't devoted to LaVey tend to use the word in a more general sense, and have done so for a long time. And not only as a term applied to others, like pagan or heretic. This is supported by the sources I have given you.

[prhill]

I TOLD you the magazines AND the videos and podcasts.  If you are not interested in the truth then you have been wasting my time.

Okay, so if you know them off the back of your hand like that, why not just shoot me some links? I'm not going to sit through a 2 hour podcast to find one instance of them mentioning summoning demons.

And still, even if specific members of CoS believe in something Rupert Sheldrake made a claim about, this still says ZERO about CoS official stance on supernatural beings.

You clearly have not read one word I have said so you have wasted my time and do not care about that facts

---

That some author refers to obscure occult practices in France as "Satanism" doesn't make it so. Satanism was not a thing until LaVey created it as a philosophy. I don't know how many times I can repeat this. No one before LaVey called themselves "Satanists." It was a term that was used similar to "Pagans" or "heretics," almost exclusively by Christians.

Satanism "was a thing" at various times. I agree that LaVey organized it in a way that it had never been organized before. 

It was indeed a term used by Christians to attack people they suspected. There's a long interesting book from 1896 devoted to working out who really is and isn't a devil-worshipper. 

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Devil-Worship_in_France

It's true that Masons and others were accused of being Satanists, but weren't really. On the other hand, there were people who worshipped Satan, who were known as Satanists, and didn't reject the label. 

Again, I think you are using a very specific definition of the word which sees LaVey type people as the only true Satanists. This is of course the definition we would expect to find on the web site of LaVey's organization. Still, people who aren't devoted to LaVey tend to use the word in a more general sense, and have done so for a long time. And not only as a term applied to others, like pagan or heretic. This is supported by the sources I have given you.

There were also satanists around before Lavey that used a book called Black Book of Satan. I actually knew a lady who said they used it for rituals in the woods in the 50s. A member owned an occult shop and had all the ritual tools

[Belacqua]

There were also satanists around before Lavey that used a book called Black Book of Satan. I actually knew a lady who said they used it for rituals in the woods in the 50s. A member owned an occult shop and had all the ritual tools

I'm sure there were all kinds of Satanists, throughout [formerly] Christian countries. As with the antinomian Christians who appeared under Cromwell and then went underground again with the Restoration, they tend to be hard to research. Understandably, they kept quiet, didn't advertise, and didn't publicly recruit. 

So it's a little hard to know exactly how organized they were, and to what extent they overlapped with witchcraft groups or other occult practitioners. 

In fact I admire this willingness to be devoted to one's practice in a private way, not imitating the evangelical, official, and hierarchical nature of the official churches. 

It seems that EgoDeath doesn't accept these earlier groups or individuals as Satanists. I think he wants to save the definition for only that "codified philosophy" which he finds appealing. Maybe we could use a denominational qualifier, like "Authorized Satanists" vs. "Chthonic Satanists." 

Also I've been reading a little lately about Goethe's Faust and its historical references. While it might not be exactly right to call Faust a Satanist (and of course he is fictional) Goethe was aware of a very long tradition of real people, going all the way back to Simon Magus, and the Faustus mentioned by St. Augustine in the Confessions. So organized Satanism may be unusual, but the worship of Satan, dealings with Satan, taking Satan as one's master in preference to Christ -- all of these things have a very long history.

-----------

By the way, I'm embarrassed to admit that when I first saw your screen name, I thought it said "Dr. Phil." I understand now that you are not the same!

[EgoDeath]

That some author refers to obscure occult practices in France as "Satanism" doesn't make it so. Satanism was not a thing until LaVey created it as a philosophy. I don't know how many times I can repeat this. No one before LaVey called themselves "Satanists." It was a term that was used similar to "Pagans" or "heretics," almost exclusively by Christians.

Satanism "was a thing" at various times. I agree that LaVey organized it in a way that it had never been organized before. 

It was indeed a term used by Christians to attack people they suspected. There's a long interesting book from 1896 devoted to working out who really is and isn't a devil-worshipper. 

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Devil-Worship_in_France

It's true that Masons and others were accused of being Satanists, but weren't really. On the other hand, there were people who worshipped Satan, who were known as Satanists, and didn't reject the label. 

Again, I think you are using a very specific definition of the word which sees LaVey type people as the only true Satanists. This is of course the definition we would expect to find on the web site of LaVey's organization. Still, people who aren't devoted to LaVey tend to use the word in a more general sense, and have done so for a long time. And not only as a term applied to others, like pagan or heretic. This is supported by the sources I have given you.

Okay, please cite me a source of a group that called themselves "Satanists" before LaVey. I'll wait. This has nothing to do with my affinity for "codified philosophy," this has to do with your direct and repeated misuse of the word.

---

You clearly have not read one word I have said so you have wasted my time and do not care about that facts

Says the moron who refuses to throw a link my way. We have already established that you've been wrong about a few things... Let's review.

Satanism is an atheistic philosophy. They do not believe in supernatural beings or deities.

A Church of Satan forum does not exist.

You understand little about the nature of showmanship used by LaVey and his peers.

A DIRECT QUOTE from the CoS website, on the FAQ page, in response to the question "I am having experiences with demons or I feel that someone is attacking me on the supernatural level. What can you do to help me?"

CoS says, and I quote

Satanists do not believe in demons or other supernatural beings, nor do we believe in spells. Seek help from local mental health professionals to assist you to get over these delusions.

You are quite the fucking moron, I do admit.