Dear Resident Theists

[Kingpin]

Sorry I missed this, Chad.  (Been pretty busy on the home front.)

I'm surprised you would say "the multiverse is an argument of convenience for atheists who do not want to face-up to the obvious implications of a fine-tuned universe".  Personally, I am unable to imagine that there is not a larger frame of reference than a universe.  Obviously you think so too.  But for you the larger frame of reference involves the supernatural.  Surely though you don't really think the multiverse theory only exists as an atheist strategy.  That would really be quite a conspiracy.  I guess you mean that's why we like it.  But my sense on this forum is that multiversalists are not in the majority among atheists.

As to facing up to a well tuned universe, what is the comparison by which we are to conclude that ours is more or less well tuned than your average universe?  That again is information none of us may possess as far as I know.

I haven't a clue why you think anything I might believe which has to do with being an atheist obliges me to think reality is absurd.  I suppose one could look at it that way.  But I don't.  I'd rather say it is exquisite.

Any fine tuning argument is always at best an inference which is why I very rarely find myself defending them. If you take the apparent design of the universe as a brute fact you may certainly do so . My issue is with those who recognize the apparent design and go further to justify their opinion using a speculative Multiverse theory. Once you appeal to causes outside the known universe and the natural laws to which it conforms you have already given up the game. Any such cause is by definition supernatural. I find it either disingenuous or downright stupid to ridicule people who openly accept the possibility of the supernatural when they themselves tacitly accept it.

Yes Chad, this was my point earlier.  Those who hold to a naturalistic framework, though they may not realize it, their explanation for the beginning of the universe is also supernatural (if they choose to give one, must just say they don't know).  In Hawkings latest book he says the singularity is where the laws of physics necessarily break down, so what caused the singularity was not limited by the laws of physics, it was outside natural law, i.e. supernatural.  The issue arises where theists identify that supernatural 'thing' as a personal God.  Some atheists here have even stated, a decent case can be made for Deism, it's when it turns to Theism that issues arise.  To me that shows that's where emotions take over.  The objections to theism are by and large moral ones, "why would a God create this?", "why would a God allow this?", etc.  When we say there is a non-personal, non-identifiable deity, there is far less issue, but alas we don't believe in a non-personal Deity.