RE: Apologetics open challenge
September 9, 2015 at 1:44 am
(This post was last modified: September 9, 2015 at 1:46 am by TheRocketSurgeon.
Edit Reason: Edited to clear up an ambiguity on slavery vs. indentured servitude definitions.
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(September 9, 2015 at 12:01 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I nearly forgot about this thread.
Here's another argument:
God cannot decide what objective morality is, or else it would be arbitrary.
Objective morality thus cannot be created by God.
If God cannot create objective morality and decide what is, then neither can evolution, as God can create evolution.
Objective morality exists.
Thus objective morality is eternal.
Objective morality takes a perception to see.
Thus an eternal being who perceives objective morality always existed.
I found your problem.
I'm afraid there is no evidence whatsoever that "objective morality" exists. There are things we pretty much all agree on, as social animals (aka humans), but by no means are they defined in the same way, and even something obvious like "don't kill" and "don't rape" are defined in extraordinarily different ways, across cultures. There is no one thing you can point to which is "objectively" moral, and the arguments made for "objective" morals in the Old Testament, from which all three "Abrahamic" ideologies draw their concept of morality, are demonstrably horrifying by modern standards, and clearly the product of patriarchal, Bronze Age tribal sheepherder thinking: slavery and indentured servitude for debts (for other races and for one's own people, respectively), rape of women treated as a property crime against the men who "own" them, murder of disobedient children, murder of those who practice freedom of religious conscience, genocide, and dozens of other absolutely and utterly immoral ideas by modern standards. This clearly and unequivocally shows that the claims of "moral objectivists" cannot hold up under scrutiny.
Since your entire argument hinges on that single proposition, "Objective morality exists, Thus...", it unravels upon scrutiny.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.
I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.