(September 25, 2015 at 9:04 am)bennyboy Wrote:But I think this can be delivered back to the door of Idealism with interest:(September 25, 2015 at 7:54 am)Rhythm Wrote: We'd agreed to that -long- ago, but it's uninformative /w regards to proving a metaphysical claim and more specifically uninformative with regards to any implication-sans-proof between idealism or materialism. What's the problem...and does idealism incorporate this, as materialism does with comp and information theories, or does it simply state their existence as brute fact? That would be important, to me.
Generally, when one model is capable of explaining what another refers to as a brute fact...I abandon the latter in favor of the former.
I find the explanations of physicalism with regards to (for example) mind to be so question begging that they are equally useless-- no matter how detailed they are. Saying "the brain causes mind" feels right, but actually it's a non-sequitur if you don't know where our experiences of brains ultimately come from. . . and no, you don't get to just say, "the brain, of course," because circles are bad.
- the often repeated mantra on this thread is "we can doubt matter, but we cannot doubt mind". This simply begs the question by assuming that the mind is not matter from the outset.
- there is a epistemic and ontological confusion. To state: "I am certain I have a mind, but not certain of existents outside of my mind" is an epistemic problem not an ontoligical one, ie it does nothing to say I know what my mind is made of because I cannot be certain object x exists. It is perfectly consistent to say "I am certain I have a mind, but not certain of existents outside of my mind, but my mind is an emergent property of brain structures".
I think both of these problems too often confuse the issue, as the next step is to then leap to mind is fundamental and matter is not. Using the same faulty reasoning we could argue (and we do not) thus:
1. If god exists then he is fundamental
2. I can doubt the existence of god
3. If I can doubt the existence of god, then he cannot be fundamental
C. God does not exist.
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.