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Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
#1
Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
- as though it does.

[This is a piece that I wrote a couple months ago on my blog, but wanted to share on this forum because I believe it has a lot of discussion value]

Maybe it’s futile, but I think this question seems to play through a wide range of variables of how I feel in general, it’s not just one concept I want to cover here. 

The idea that free will exists hurts me to think about on a fundamental level, as a person who lives with a lot of anxiety. The idea that there will always be someone who doesn’t understand the way you behave, seems to be a universal problem for all human beings, it’s the reason why loneliness exists, and among the smartest people on the planet can feel lonely, because there will always be things inside of our mind that other people cannot understand and perhaps an intelligent person can’t even explain. 

Ironically I don’t feel that intelligent, but I’ll get to that later. The idea that free will exists seems to suggest that everyone is responsible for their actions. This implies that whenever a person does something, it’s not because there are factors that influenced their behavior, but that their behavior is simply an act of their own will and governed by an independent mind. Leaving out the details of why I don’t think free will exists, this already creates a problem. It means that a person can always fall under scrutiny for their behavior, when in fact the people judging our behavior can’t even understand the way we think, or why we think. Looking at behavior from this perspective creates a scenario where a person can be judged for their actions, based arbitrarily on whether or not their behavior is good or bad.

It occurred to me that good and bad are arbitrary concepts as far back as high school, that I can remember. I realize that most people don’t think about concepts this deeply, I see this in the tendency of people to choose whatever narrative makes them feel most comfortable; I don’t. It makes me deeply uncomfortable to think what I am thinking right now, believe me. I am as far from being sanctimonious for thinking the thoughts that I’m thinking right now as I could possibly imagine. None the less, the concept that there’s good and bad behavior are the opposite, it is a sanctimonious stance to take, regardless of whether or not free will exists. It makes people think that they are superior to another person, when in fact they just don’t understand why another person behaves the way they do.

There’s no relativistic perspective here, some things aren’t more wrong than others. Everyone is inherently neutral, everyone’s actions are inherently equal. To to think the opposite - well, that’s what’s led to the entire form of society that we live in right now. Crime, punishment, guilty, not guilty, the gossip you hear vapid girls and boys walking down the street making about their peers. It all stems from this concept that people can be judged for their actions, it all stems from this hubris lie that human beings can be inherently judged for their actions. I don’t think that people realize this, but this form of thinking, this behavior which creates so much quarrel between fellow human beings, can only be possible if people accept that people are responsible for their own actions, regardless of whether or not they think that free will actually exists.

This is deeply concerning to me, because it means that I will be constantly judged for my actions, by people who don’t understand how the brain works, by people who are petty and lack understanding of my own mind, or even have a good reason to think what they may or may not think of me in the first place. This is a large dark vacuum where all knowledge and understanding is sucked out, and replaced by an empty void of judgment and vague reasoning. It pisses me off so much, that people can make these stupid, vacuous assumptions about other people, yet I don’t have any power over what they think, even if I try my best to explain why they should have empathy and patience and understanding for other people - by explaining to them why I think that free will doesn’t exist.

Free will most likely does not exist, and there’s already a lot of factors that we know play a role in why people behave the way they behave. Some of these factors include (but are not limited to, because the factors are infinite), a person’s upbringing and how this upbringing effects the development of their brain; a person’s environment, which could mean where they live and their economic and social status; the food they eat which effects the brain and the body - which effects the brain which is part of the body; a person’s genes which were passed down from their parents which dictate what behavioral traits a person will have, so much is passed down from parents. Already, we can begin to see that a person is not responsible for a lot of the factors that play into what makes them who they are. Furthermore, we don’t orchestrate what is going on inside of our head, our brains are the ones doing all the work and we just happen to notice the outcome of what goes on inside of our brain, it absorbs information from the world around us and it does all the processing, we just notice our thoughts which gives us the illusion of consciousness.

That’s another thing that baffles me, is how consciousness came to be. I honestly have no idea what consciousness is, and besides Daniel Dennett, apparently, a lot of other people don’t have much of an explanation for what consciousness is besides that it’s an illusion. I am inclined to believe that things are deterministic, (even if on a sub atomic level the universe moves unpredictably, unpredictable movements wouldn’t mean we’re free, it would just mean that our actions are more chaotic, as opposed to if everything ran like a smooth ticking clock, in which our actions are governed by the laws of physics, set forth in motion from the time that time began during the big bang). This would mean that all of our actions have been determined from the beginning of time, and that everything leading up to everything that has ever happened is completely unavoidable; everyone who has ever committed a crime was destined to end up doing it from the start. Or everything’s completely chaotic, and equally nothing is responsible for anything. 

That would mean our entire concept of morality is wrong. The only ideas that seem to contradict my own that I have heard are extremely annoying. People tend to have these vague religious ideas which make no sense what so ever. I just wanted to say it here, it is so annoying. People choose to believe what they want to believe about the universe, because - and I shit you not - they have said they don’t like the idea of determinism. I’m sorry, you fucking dumbass, but it doesn’t matter if you think the sun doesn’t revolved around the earth either. There’s empirical evidence that shows that this is true, empirical evidence is the only way of accurately explaining what happens in the universe. And that’s so important, these accurate explanations, because they allow everything that you do which you might otherwise take for granted, like using a computer, people going to space, cars, phones; someone had to have evidence and rational way of thinking to make these things work.
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#2
RE: Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
Whether or not free will is real, treating each other and ourselves as if it is, is very useful.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#3
RE: Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
(February 8, 2017 at 3:38 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Whether or not free will is real, treating each other and ourselves as if it is, is very useful.
Really? Would you care to tell me why?
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#4
RE: Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
Ultimately, if someone is a "bad behavior machine", if there is no moral desert....that won't necessarily change the outcome of the actions attributed to the machine.  We'll still have a good reason to lock somebody up for assault. Perhaps a better reason, since they can't help but assault a person.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#5
RE: Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
(February 8, 2017 at 4:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Ultimately, if someone is a "bad behavior machine", if there is no moral desert....that won't necessarily change the outcome of the actions attributed to the machine.  We'll still have a good reason to lock somebody up for assault.  Perhaps a better reason, since they can't help but assault a person.

Bingo!

Free will =/= Moral Responsibility. And stop acting like the two are tied in any meaningful way.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
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#6
RE: Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
(February 8, 2017 at 4:10 pm)Sal Wrote:
(February 8, 2017 at 4:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Ultimately, if someone is a "bad behavior machine", if there is no moral desert....that won't necessarily change the outcome of the actions attributed to the machine.  We'll still have a good reason to lock somebody up for assault.  Perhaps a better reason, since they can't help but assault a person.

Bingo!

Free will =/= Moral Responsibility. And stop acting like the two are tied in any meaningful way.
He's not arguing that it does, if you read what he typed.

However, locking up someone who caused harm and is dangerous =/= punishing someone who caused harm and is dangerous, and people need to stop conflating these 2 as if they were tied in any meaningful way. :p

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should stop keeping the public safe.  What we are arguing is that prevention and rehabilitation should be focused on, instead of punishment.  Punishing a machine for doing what it is programmed to do is pointless and cruel, no different from people. It is better to try and fix the program.  If the program cannot be fixed, then yeah, you need to prevent it from causing more harm, probably with incarceration, but more humane incarceration than what we currently employ.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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#7
RE: Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
(February 8, 2017 at 4:19 pm)Aroura Wrote:
(February 8, 2017 at 4:10 pm)Sal Wrote: Bingo!

Free will =/= Moral Responsibility. And stop acting like the two are tied in any meaningful way.
He's not arguing that it does, if you rea what he typed.

However, locking up someone who caused harm and is dangerous =/= punishing someone who caused harm and is dangerous, and people need to stop conflating these 2 as if they were tied in any meaningful way. :p

I don't think anyone is arguing that we should stop keeping the public safe.  What we are arguing is that prevention and rehabilitation should be focused on, instead of punishment.  As Punishing a machine for doing what it is programmed to do is pointless and cruel, no different from people. It is better to try and fix the program.  If the program cannot be fixed, then yeah, you need to prevent it from causing more harm, probably with incarceration, but more humane incarceration than what we currently employ.
Absolutely. Thank you for saying what I was about to say.
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#8
RE: Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
(February 8, 2017 at 4:19 pm)Aroura Wrote: He's not arguing that it does, if you read what he typed.

However, locking up someone who caused harm and is dangerous =/= punishing someone who caused harm and is dangerous, and people need to stop conflating these 2 as if they were tied in any meaningful way. :p
That -is- how we "punish" people who've done dangerous things.  By locking them up.......  Dodgy

Quote:I don't think anyone is arguing that we should stop keeping the public safe.  What we are arguing is that prevention and rehabilitation should be focused on, instead of punishment.
I've argued the same many times...and I like to sweeten the pot by explaining to people who think free will is a requirement that very little, if anything at all, would have to change as regards our justice system in order to do so.

Quote:Punishing a machine for doing what it is programmed to do is pointless and cruel, no different from people. It is better to try and fix the program.  If the program cannot be fixed, then yeah, you need to prevent it from causing more harm, probably with incarceration, but more humane incarceration than what we currently employ.
Well, we program (and construct) our machines for a range of acceptable use and functions..and when they malfunction we discard them or reprogram them.  If you wanted to make the analogy hold to people.......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#9
RE: Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
(February 8, 2017 at 4:24 pm)Khemikal Wrote:
(February 8, 2017 at 4:19 pm)Aroura Wrote: He's not arguing that it does, if you read what he typed.

However, locking up someone who caused harm and is dangerous =/= punishing someone who caused harm and is dangerous, and people need to stop conflating these 2 as if they were tied in any meaningful way. :p
That -is- how we "punish" people who've done dangerous things.  By locking them up.......  Dodgy

So you admit we lock them up, not to keep us safe, but to punish them. That is the problem. 
Incarceration alone is a terribly remedy to crime.  It does not decrease recidivism (as a matter of fact, it increases it), and it certainly does nothing to prevent crime in the first place. Statistics back this up.

Incarceration alone should be a last resort for incurable criminals.  
Instead we use incarceration as a first resort, and behave as if punishment should somehow cure people of their criminal behavior, which is stupid, as it doesn't.

Quote:I don't think anyone is arguing that we should stop keeping the public safe.  What we are arguing is that prevention and rehabilitation should be focused on, instead of punishment.
I've argued the same many times...and I like to sweeten the pot by explaining to people who think free will is a requirement that very little, if anything at all, would have to change as regards our justice system in order to do so.

Just clarifying. You think our current justice system has all the tools in place to focus on rehab instead of punishment....but does not?
Quote:Punishing a machine for doing what it is programmed to do is pointless and cruel, no different from people. It is better to try and fix the program.  If the program cannot be fixed, then yeah, you need to prevent it from causing more harm, probably with incarceration, but more humane incarceration than what we currently employ.
Well, we program (and construct) our machines for a range of acceptable use and functions..and when they malfunction we discard them or reprogram them.  If you wanted to make the analogy hold to people.......
Not sure what you are arguing here.  We discard most of them (or really, break them even worse and call it "justice"), instead of attempting to reprogram them.  Unfeeling machine or feeling person, this seems entirely backwards.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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#10
RE: Why free will probably does not exist, and why we should stop treating people -
Admit...lol?  OFC we lock them up to punish them, but if we lock them up to rehabilitate them....we're still locking them up, and we do. ofc, lock them up to keep the rest of us safe while we're punishing them.......  That's the beauty of it.  Prisons are useful regardless.  They're useful for treating a person as though they had free will, and equally useful for the same reasons if we didn't.  

We'd have to use incarceration as a first resort for any violent crime regardless of whether or not free will exists, and perhaps moreso if we just run with the idea that it doesn't.  After all, how could we then argue, with a straight face, that it was just that once, that he'll be able to "control himself" later?  We couldn't.  Off to the cell they go until they've been reconditioned/refurbished/reprogrammed/recycled....whatever......  

As clarification, I think that the tools we have can be used for rehabilitation, but I wouldn;t go so far as to say we have all the necessary tools for that switch.  -and yes, I think we could make that switch, but..for absurd reasons, simply do not.  

Incarceration is not discarding someone, if you want to make the analogy hold.  Executing them and reusing them to make functional machines would be discarding them.  Though, if criminals are malfunctioning machines...and we want to make the analogy hold, what's the problem...just to play devils advocate?  What -makes- it seem entirely backwards?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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