(December 31, 2015 at 12:50 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote:Yes, and I find it interesting that we could just as fittingly be talking about free will and causal determinism, in the context of humans beings, as we could be talking about the beginning of the material universe, or at least as it exists according to our best information about its laws... specifically, whether it just randomly popped into existence on its own, or was caused by something else that was caused by something that was---(December 31, 2015 at 6:14 am)Nestor Wrote: Yes, that is close to what I'm saying, though I would include intentions/ends under that of a mover moved by a determinate motion, whereas self-motion is movement of self by self, and hence, can only be random motion. Why do I insist on this? Because if of itself and by itself something can determine to move in such a way that is truly free of necessity, it can have no predilection for one outcome over another, or to move at this time and at none other. Such a bent would preclude a prior motion which necessitated that particular state of affairs, otherwise, it occurred spontaneously.
To put it another way: All change by definition follows upon a preceding state of affairs which is ever so slightly different in one of two respects, temporal succession or spatial location. That change must either result as a necessary consequence of the preceding state (the car in Benny's dream was imagined to be here, passing by, but now that it has changed its position, it's there, up the imaginary road), in which motion is acted upon by something prior (whatever put the car in motion, on that particular road, in that instant of thought, etc.), or it acts from something of an internal impulse, but one that can truly be said to free in the sense that it is indeterminate - the only other option involving some causes and/or ends.
Again we bump up against the free will debate, agreed? I see some room between random and determined motion. From the point of view of an external witness, the movement of a self-mover can seem random. But from the point of view of the self-mover, movements can be elective and coherent with values and dispositions which are more or less settled. But some of our actions can seem more spontaneous/random than others, and some of us would always want to make room for them. But I don't think any self-mover -assuming we're talking about human beings here- would ever agree that every one of their actions is random.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza