(February 9, 2016 at 4:35 pm)athrock Wrote: You fundamentally misunderstand the nature and role of confession. This is why I said you do not know Catholicism.
And I appreciate that you then went on to detail your position more fully than this. Now, a conversation is possible.
Quote:If a person goes to confession and admits to living with his girlfriend and is unwilling to stop having sex with her, the priest may withhold absolution. Why? Because the person is not committed to CHANGE, to avoiding sin in the future. He is saying, "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned. I'll be sinning again later tonight because I'm not will to give up my sin, but I want to be forgiven anyhow."
A few loopholes immediately spring to mind, but those are irrelevant points, really. Instead, I'll ask for further clarification: is it your view that a desire for change is required for salvation, over and above simply accepting Jesus' sacrifice, keeping in mind that said sacrifice was made explicitly because without it there could be no salvation for anyone? In essence, isn't it true that not desiring a change from sin is itself just another sin that Jesus' crucifixion is apt to wipe away before god?
Quote:Would any of you forgive your own children whose confession and apology for some transgression was so obviously insincere? Hardly.
I actually might, were I a rational person, knowing full well the context that the rules have been structured such that it's literally impossible for my children not to break them. I mean, I guess I might just not have arranged the rules like that in the first place, but if I was in a situation in which transgressions like that were unavoidable by design, I might at least put some thought into the level of sincerity I should expect.
If being good isn't an option through no fault of their own, in what sense have they even committed any transgression worthy of apologizing for? Am I really being reasonable if I set up the game so that one outcome is impossible, yet I demand apologies for not reaching that outcome anyway?
Quote:Similarly, the person who is sexually active in a committed homosexual relationship cannot be forgiven by the Church because there must be the firm intent to avoid the sin in the future. This obviously does not exist within the context of gay marriage or most homosexual relationships. But heterosexuals who are sinning outside of marriage are held to the same standard.
Let's assume, for a moment, that I don't actually care about the church's forgiveness at all. Let's talk about god and his forgiveness, well known as it is for being comprehensive with the addition of the crucifixion. Would god forgive an otherwise devout homosexual couple? If not, why not, considering that his sacrifice as Jesus is sufficient to forgive every other sin?
And if he would, isn't it true that the church is deviating from god's will, in that instance, by denying the forgiveness of god to a person who would actually have the forgiveness of god, were god allowed to speak for himself?
Quote:The heterosexual couple can correct this problem by:
1. Living separately and chastely
2. Living jointly and chastely
3. Getting married.
Though of course, their sin state would remain, fixable only by acceptance of a certain sacrifice, yes? So what's the difference, in the long run, that requires such intensive additional demands to be made of homosexuals?
Quote:The homosexual couple may choose the first of these two options, but the third is simply not possible because a same-sex couple cannot reproduce. Thus, while the unitive aspect of sexuality might be met, the procreative is not.
Your church allows infertile people to marry. I'm not going to be considering any "procreative" arguments to be anything other than special pleading, given that.
I've heard some of the reasoning as to why the former is allowed, while gay marriage is not, by the way. It still strikes me as special pleading, and I'll get into that if need be, but I'd like to see how much of that you actually subscribe to before I go in depth on that.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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