(March 3, 2016 at 7:39 am)AJW333 Wrote:Ok.... let's play that game.(March 3, 2016 at 7:06 am)pocaracas Wrote: Do try to keep in mind that just because we humans haven't managed to explain a particular phenomenon, it doesn't mean that this phenomenon is magical.... it just means that its mechanism eludes us, for the time being.
There are even some phenomena that will likely forever elude us, such as the Big Bang, or the exact mechanism by which abiogenesis happened on this planet... but that does not mean, in the slightest, that those phenomena happened due to some magical force.
Not suggesting a "magical force." I'm trying to keep things from getting hyper spiritual. Just dealing with definitions, in particular that of the word "supernatural" which seems to be somewhat misrepresented on this thread. I'd like to stick to dictionary definitions rather than people's personal definitions.
(March 3, 2016 at 7:39 am)AJW333 Wrote: If a person posits that there are no such things as supernatural occurrences, and that any unexplained phenomena must have purely naturalistic explanations, how is this any different from an individual making an arbitrary declaration that God exists?
For starters, the claim that something exists requires something to back it up.
I can't just make up a thing and present it to people, claiming it exists... A claim, by itself, is meaningless.
The claim that something doesn't exist is almost impossible to maintain, in the absolute sense.
I cannot claim that there are no teapots outside the planet Earth. But I can claim that no teapots have been observed outside the planet Earth and, unless there is life somewhere out there with opposable thumbs, therefore it is unlikely to exist. (lets not discuss now the likelihood of life out there, ok? )
You seem to want to posit scientific ignorance - the ignorance of some mechanism by scientists - as a form of supernatural event. That is incorrect.
The "laws" of Nature, derived by science, are incomplete. Complex mechanisms are not easily modeled on the basis of the seemingly correct QCD, so coarser models are used and these have not managed to provide the full mechanism for a few events.... namely, abiogenesis.
Some good guesses have surfaced... some promising experiments have been made... but the exact mechanism is still not understood, not modeled.
But you can be pretty sure that it rests upon chemistry.... organic chemistry, how carbon, oxygen, hydrogen and a few other atoms have come together to form particularly complex structures. Chemistry rests upon Quantum Physics which seems well represented in the QCD formalism.
A supernatural event would go against QCD or would go against the 2nd Law of thermodynamics. If such events are not required to provide a tentative theoretical mechanism for abiogenesis.... why go there?
Supernatural events have never been observed.... Why posit them as possible? (tales of old mean little, remember)