Hey, I'm new

[therationalist]

Welcome to the forums. Void likes to jump right in there and get to the meat of things doesn't he

thanks mate... and you're right. Void is into the battle.

---

However, Going from "Something always existed -> It can't be natural (why?) -> God" is a complete non sequitur, you have not reasoned your way to that conclusion at all.

Well, maybe I've not. I told you there were too many questions asked at once.
how would 'something' let's presume it's an object; that exists all the time be natural? iow. what is your presumed natural 'something' that can exist all the time? or is it that you don't know.

There is also no relationship between non-contingency and magnitudes of power - I would argue that the more 'power' (abilities) the thing has the less likely it is to exist as a brute fact, but that aside, there is no reason why something that always exists necessarily has great power.

why do you think that- something that can exist all the time, w/o any beginning (cause if it had a beginning, it would've come out of nothing), do not necessarily has great power or is not a superior being?

So it is not the literal truth?

By what method do you determine what parts are to be believed?

I believe in Quran, because it is the literal truth.
I believe in all the parts of the Quran. The method is simple. History tells that the Quran we find today is the same Quran written by Muhammed during the 6th century.

I'll leave the claims about the Quran's specifics to our resident Muslim Rayaan and Apostate Anatar...

there is more probability that they'll not agree with me, as most of the Muslims don't. But I'm ready to debate rationally.

I'll ask this though:

1. How do you know that you aren't the one with false beliefs?
2. How do you know that you aren't the one who is spreading a false perception of islam?

Because my perceptions are based on the Quran, which was written during Muhammed's life.
Not based on my own made up ideas. Or hadiths that were written 300 years after the death of Mhammed (presumed to be Muhammed's word).

Are you saying that the Quran supports an old earth? What verses hint at it's age in the billions of years?

Yes,

"Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54)
but in Quran, use of the Arabic word "youm" (day) is understood to be something different from a normal day. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). so, a day of God's creation should not be percieved as a day, but as long period of time. The universe so was created in six different ages not days.
see, that's why I believe earth can be 4.5 bill. years as estimated by scientists. Quran doesn't say 4.5 bill. exactly but neither does it say anything that's against our established scientific claims. There's nothing unlike the Bible- which says it has to be 6 earthly days.
Here's another important point to note. see how both Quran and Bible states 6 days. it could be because both religion originated from God, but as I already told, Christianity got corrupted after the death of Jesus; maybe there were teachings of Jesus that pointed out that 6 days were not actually our counted six days, but it got removed because of its distortion by men.

If you expected me to ask you to clarify then you should have done so, but none the less; Can you clarify that?

I'm sorry, i just said that because there were too many questions asked at once.
There's a big explanation for this. But I'll try to briefly state it for you. all of us lived in God's kingdom, before the creation of the universe. Then one of God's higher ranking creatures- satan proposed that he can a god beside God. Most of the creatures didn't fall into the trap, but a minority did.
[38:69] "I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society.
God could've just punished all of them, but he gave them a second chance knowing that majority of them would repent. and they did.
[33:72] We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human beings accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
God gave the rest a third and final chance, knowing that still a minority of them will repent after the test of this world. He knew that out of these sinners people like Jesus, Muhammed, Abraham and many other good souls will finally repent and submit to God.
[6:111] Even if we sent down the angels to them; even if the dead spoke to them; even if we summoned every miracle before them; they cannot believe unless GOD wills it. Indeed, most of them are ignorant.
if this is true, then dont you think this minority of transgressing creatures deserve hell after all the chances they've missed. I don't believe we were created for this test, but we chose to take this test.

Oh great, this bullshit again - Sorry, but I've been through this all at length before and it is quite honestly the least convincing and perhaps the most nonsense argument for deity I have ever encountered. [quote]
Well i can see that you have a strong stand against this
You are taking the book you already believe to be divinely inspired and then using an arbitrary literary standard designed post-hoc to fit this specific book, and then when no other work that someone can name fits these specific arbitrary constraints you maintain that it is evidence for the divine - It is nonsense.

I could take a work of Shakespeare and devise some arbitrary standard to fit the book, some post-hoc constraints that are specifically tailored for that book, and then compare the Quran against the constraints designed around Shakespeare and when they do not fit I would be equally (un)justified in claiming that those books are the product of divinity.

Now, aren't you biased now? just because you've heard of this before and were not convinced, you're not going to give it a second chance.

These scientific miracles of the Quran have been absolutely refuted time and time again, if you have some specific examples you think are valid then present them individually.

really??? ok, then refute this for me please...
[51:47] We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it.
did people in 6th century know that the universe is always expanding. then how was it written down in this book.