(June 4, 2016 at 8:44 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:If we assume that the "God", of christianity or Islam is the truth, then God created beings who could make evil decisions, but he gave us the opportunity to make our own decisions. Knowing what decisions we will make is not the same as actually making the decisions. But we need to consider the process of creation. Let us say that I am a really nasty person, an atheist and a rapist, and serial killer of the worst kind. The theology says that "God" allowed me to make the decisions, and did not make the decisions for me. Nevertheless, this "God" is still responsible, because an omniscient and omnipotent god could have conceived of a universe in which either I do not exist, or in which I of my own supposed free will, am a really good guy, with a social conscience, and a good moral code, and who never does any harm.(June 4, 2016 at 7:25 pm)Lek Wrote: No. God created beings who could make evil decisions, but he gave us the opportunity to make our own decisions. Knowing what decisions we will make is not the same as actually making the decisions. I will agree that God could stop evil from happening, but then he would be going against the decision he made to give us free will. We would be nothing but puppets and you wouldn't have the choice to reject him either. We do the evil acts, but if you want to believe that God is responsible for it all then go ahead.
Wrong again. As an omnipotent, omniscient Being, God created everything, including our decisions and choices. In the context of such a Being, there can logically be no free will. If you buy into the rubbish that God created the universe, then God knew, from the beginning of time, that I would be an atheist - I had no choice in the matter, just as you had no choice in believing the most outlandish collection of fairy stories ever inflicted on the western world. If God made everything, then God made me an atheist, made you a believer, made rapists, torturers, and murderers. God is directly responsible for evil, full stop.
Boru
Thus "God" chose between universe 1, and universe 2, and opted for universe 1. Yet the theology still says that "God" is not responsible in that case.
As a thought experiment, if I were to let a passionate religious extremist loose at a gun show, knowing that (s)he was highly likely to try and kill people, and that fanatic grabbed a gun and shot a lot of people, killing many. Although the religious nutter was the one directly making the decisions, I would still bear a major responsibility because, (if I have freewill), because I could have chosen otherwise. Same for "God", and his options in universe-creation. Similarly, if I allow a person to drive a car knowing that it had bad brakes, tyres and steering, and they have an accident as a result. I would have to bear a major responsibility, even though you might say that the driver chose to drive the car, and the car might not have crashed.
But it's worse in the case of "God" because that god would more than knowledge of mere likelihood, but in prescience would have full certainty of what was to unfold; and before creation, (if such a concept makes any sense). As such, "God" had options. He will have opted for the universe 'with a really nasty person, an atheist and a rapist, and serial killer of the worst kind', over a universe with a' really good guy, with a social conscience, and a good moral code, and who never does any harm'. That is regardless of the freewill or otherwise, of the person (me).
There are no atheists in terrorist training camps.