RE: I need help with refutations for this
April 24, 2011 at 11:03 am
(This post was last modified: April 24, 2011 at 11:05 am by TheDarkestOfAngels.)
So you need help refuting these?
... I'll give it a shot.
Note that 'you' being your religious person who asked this.
The "true beliefs" and your "congnitive structure" and its method of retention of "True Beliefs" holds exactly as true for every belief, not just one given belief.
As such, no belief can be 'true' based on your cognative ability to "retain it."
This has entirely to do with how one is raised into a particular belief (or by not being raised into a belief at all) than one's natural state of mind. There is no 'likelyhood' in this - it's basic child psychology in that if you raise a child to believe something, that child retains that knowledge.
This is to say that if your religious friend were raised by a muslim family, he would just as likely be muslim by now instead of christian, meaning that #2 is entirely wrong.
There is no 'chance' involved, his 'cognative structure retaining true beliefs' is entirely gibberish and an attempt to sound smarter than he really is when all it really is essentially boils down to how a person is raised and what philosophies he's exposed to.
There is no evidence, anywhere, that such a being ever existed or influenced human or universal action that hasn't been explained by human scientific standards (which involves actual research and observations and so on).
If there is only one truth in the universe, then what does the religious experiences of others mean?
(I would expect him to say something along the lines of 'the devil did it' or 'god works in mysterious ways' - both of which are meaningless answers to handwave the thoughts away.)
Specific questions can give you the proper direction in order to find answers.
... I'll give it a shot.
(April 23, 2011 at 1:51 pm)MrJatt Wrote: 1. I think belief in God is properly basic.How is god 'properly basic' and why do you believe this to be the case?
Note that 'you' being your religious person who asked this.
(April 23, 2011 at 1:51 pm)MrJatt Wrote: 2. The likelihood of my cognitive structure structure retaining true beliefs is greater than on theism, than given atheism).a few problems:
The "true beliefs" and your "congnitive structure" and its method of retention of "True Beliefs" holds exactly as true for every belief, not just one given belief.
As such, no belief can be 'true' based on your cognative ability to "retain it."
This has entirely to do with how one is raised into a particular belief (or by not being raised into a belief at all) than one's natural state of mind. There is no 'likelyhood' in this - it's basic child psychology in that if you raise a child to believe something, that child retains that knowledge.
This is to say that if your religious friend were raised by a muslim family, he would just as likely be muslim by now instead of christian, meaning that #2 is entirely wrong.
There is no 'chance' involved, his 'cognative structure retaining true beliefs' is entirely gibberish and an attempt to sound smarter than he really is when all it really is essentially boils down to how a person is raised and what philosophies he's exposed to.
(April 23, 2011 at 1:51 pm)MrJatt Wrote: And for Christian theism in particularly:Based on what, exactly?
3. Argument that God is not a unitarian God.
There is no evidence, anywhere, that such a being ever existed or influenced human or universal action that hasn't been explained by human scientific standards (which involves actual research and observations and so on).
(April 23, 2011 at 1:51 pm)MrJatt Wrote: 4. The Resurrection as the best explanation of certain facts about the historical Jesus.What historical Jesus?
(April 23, 2011 at 1:51 pm)MrJatt Wrote: 5. Religious experience.Members of any and every religion often have those. It doesn't make those religions legitimate and 'religious experience' isn't even necessary a sign of relgion being true - especially considering that two religious experiences can often contradict one another and often coincide with the religious faith of the one having the experience. Which is to say, that if your faith is the true faith then how do members of other contradictory faiths to yours (islam, buddism, and so forth) have religious experience that coincides with their faith and not necessarily yours?
If there is only one truth in the universe, then what does the religious experiences of others mean?
(I would expect him to say something along the lines of 'the devil did it' or 'god works in mysterious ways' - both of which are meaningless answers to handwave the thoughts away.)
(April 23, 2011 at 1:51 pm)MrJatt Wrote: now i do not have the knowledge to refute these except the 5th one, so i need some help to understand and perhaps refute this.It's not about the knowledge you have, but asking the right questions.
Specific questions can give you the proper direction in order to find answers.
If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
Politics is supposed to be the second-oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first. ~Ronald Reagan