UK to leave EU

[Napoléon]

Take into account that neither Trump nor Farage are able to stand up there and explicitly demand that violence take place otherwise they will be arrested and in clear violation of several laws.

Yes, let's get the qualification out the way nice and early.

But they can talk about violence in the abstract and not be arrested for that. And if accused then they can say that they are warning of dangers. But that's not why they are standing up and saying these things. They are doing it to put it into their minds of their followers and supporters that this is the next logical step to achieve their aim. And someone out there will then take it upon themselves to go and do that.

For example Nigel Farage Predicts ‘Violence The Next Step’ If Immigration Is Not Controlled.

The incredibly biased tone of that BBC interview should be an indicator of the intentions of the reporter, but can I sit here and know them? Nigel's simply saying what may be the case, presumably (and it is, presumably, because you don't actually hear the question he's asked) because he's been asked about it his opinion on this specific issue. 

And just like I can't judge the intentions of the reporter, I think it's unfair to say that his motivations are to incite violence for political gain, as though that is concrete fact. How do you know he wasn't asked the question directly about things getting violent if people don't get their way by a biased reporter?

You don't.

Also, for that matter, I don't agree that simply talking about violence in this context means you are saying it purely to "put it in people's minds". In my mind the incredibly PC nature of society is what prevents people from even bringing up any possible violent outcomes of anything. God forbid you dare discuss that. 

Even the Daily Mail reported Nigel Farage caught on camera telling Ukip supporters in Dudley to 'bully people' into voting for Brexit

I think this is blatantly tongue in cheek from Farage, something lefties rarely seem to get.

Bear in mind that we've already had an MP killed and threatening behaviour and assault against immigrants is on the rise. My Dad isn't politically minded at all but he was born in fascist Germany. Some of my ancestors were quite literally fascists (Nazis). My Dad was raised by people who saw fascism rise from nothing. When my English mother was in denial about the rise in threatening behaviour against immigrants my dad spoke up and told her "this is how it starts".

I think the world is a much different place from Nazi Germany. Having said that, how many people have been killed by terrorists in the last year? How many sexually assaulted by men from a foreign culture? Do you know?

To scrub off people's genuine concerns about these things like left wing liberals so often do is a massive disservice to every one of your fellow human beings who have lived through such injustices. 

Trump is not so subtle because he can get away with more. Not only has he described what he would do in such circumstances (again talking in the abstract) but also said that he was looking at paying the legal fees of the man who punched a protester at his rally. How can that not be condoning violence? Not to mention all the times he has said things like he could shoot someone in the street and get away with it and even threatens to punsh a protester in the face.

I like Trump even more after reading some of those!

But you say that there is a big difference between calling Trump and Mussolini. That is because you are comparing Trump as he is now trying to get power with Mussolini after he seized power. What you should be doing is comparing Trump or Farage with Mussolini before he had any power. Fascism does not come about with storm troopers marching down the street.

Yes that's true. Fair point and I take it onboard. There are more similarities than I'd like to admit perhaps. I think you can make the argument to call Trump himself a fascist, make the argument, yes, but I still don't think he fits the criteria entirely and the only reason I believe people use the term like you do is to tar him with such evil regimes of the past. Hence the association.

Nigel I'm not convinced at all. People call him a racist, xenophobic etc. I don't believe this man is and I don't believe UKIP is either. 

No. But you don't even know what an association fallacy is. I wasn't using association, I was using defining characteristics, hence the example of gold. Whereas an association fallacy is like an advertisement that uses a handsome or pretty model to sell a car, by creating an association that is not applicable.

The association comes in along with the negative baggage around fascism you would like to lump in with Trump and UKIP. Hence why I also referenced Reductio ad Hitlerum. As in, "you're playing the Nazi card", or relevantly "you're playing the fascist card". (Variations also include, the "racist" card, or the "bigot" card, see where I'm going with this?)

Care to answer my question about what are the defining characteristics of a fascist movement?

No. Thought not.

FYI I never questioned that your 'defining characteristics' were right. My point was that you were lumping Trump and UKIP into the same pot as fascists and whether they really met the criteria you outlined.

Satire only works if you understand what you are satirising. Like the difference between defining characteristics as established by historians and making shit up.

Don't think you got the point, but let's just say I don't understand and call it a day.

Ah yes, don't bother listening to experts, just go by your feels. And this is why it is no point arguing with you.

And yet here you are, you must find me charming or something.

Seems like you're just straw manning me at this point, accusing me of 'not listening to experts' when I didn't even contend your 'criteria' was correct. It was rather the application of said criteria to the people in question, that I'm questioning.

Look at it like this. We have a spade. We have set criteria for what makes a spade. You want to call Trump a spade, I'm just saying I'm not convinced he meets the criteria for a spade (on second thought the 'call a spade a spade' analogy doesn't work in my favour, but fuck it!).

Are you sure that you aren't religious? You'll make a good fascist. Don't question, just believe what you are told to.

Gotta be honest I do far more questioning on these boards than I see from the usual circle jerk. Hell this entire exchange has been me questioning you.