If free will was not real

[GrandizerII]

Again, under your subjective definition of "free", if something is predetermined, it is not free.

But I don't consider randomness/spontaneity to be equal to freedom in the context of human freedom. My idea of freedom, in the context of ths topic, is a very reasonable one in that freedom of choice is that which is exercised in accordance with one's intent or desire. Ok? That's all there is to it. I can do what I want a lot of the time. You can do what you want a lot of the time. That's freedom.

And Rozkek, please stop treating us as if we have no idea what libertarian free will means or entails. Perhaps rather than just arguing strawman with us over and over again, how about you consider what we're actually trying to say instead? I'm not a newbie when it comes to this topic, and I used to a hard determinist myself as a matter of fact (up until fairly recently), so I know very well what libertarian free will is about. I also, for the record, do not find the idea of no libertarian free will to be depressing. This isn't an emotional struggle for me. The free will you speak is illogical, of course. I am in no way disputing that. But again and again and again, argue against my idea of freedom. Tell me how my idea of freedom is irrational.

How is something free if it's determined, enlighten me. If we're going to be that subjective I can give a rock a free will.

You can do what you want, I know that, everyone does. But what you want, in other words what your will is isn't your free choice =))))))

Strawmanning? I'm saying even your definition of free will doesn't exist. The free will I speak of is not illogical, it can be applied and should be applied e.g when someone is going to be sentenced for a crime. It also makes, at least me understand people better.

How does the free will I speak of not exist? My notion of free will is logical (even the other side agrees with this), but the question is whether or not the definition is reasonable. This is what should be debated.

And libertarian free will is not illogical? Huh? I'm confused now, I thought you were arguing it is illogical. Or do you mean it's practical, rather than logical?

A rock has zero free will under my definition because it lacks intention anyway. And yes, my will is predetermined, but again, under my definition, freedom and predeterminism are not opposites of each other. All what matters (and is sufficient) for my definition is that I do what I want.