RE: Poor uneducated unintelligent aheists
May 13, 2011 at 3:47 pm
(This post was last modified: May 13, 2011 at 4:26 pm by Whirling Moat.)
Peace...
I suppose the title is more inflammatory than I intended.
I would generally agree with the idea of people taking more personal responsibility for their lot in life. I think that the poor would however argue that the deck itself is stacked against them in many instances which makes the whole bootstrap thing pretty difficult..They don't have boots... And quite frankly they would have a point. The poor are typically reared in below standard educational systems, have a diet of subpar food, exist in a state of hyperstress due to the danger of living in such environments, and if you are a black or hispanic it gets worse. The term "priviledged" is not meaningless. There are actual advantages provided to the rich. They have superior education, superior food, superior vehicles, and safe environments which stimulate thought. The rich enjoy the luxury of time for contemplation thus enriching themselves and extending the benefit of their wealth and advantage.
I think we all understand this...So, why not go level the playing field and take from the rich? If your life is relatively stable you probably see taking resources from others as wrong...but when you are in need and desperate it doesn't appear wrong to the same degree. The message of leveling the playing field resonates with the poor. When the rich refuse to level the playing field, revolutions are born. Religion has always been used to cool anger...Religion promotes tolerance..But without an afterlife why should one tolerate living in an environment where they are at a disadvantage and then the story ends?
Peace...
People NEED hope. And when they run out of hope they become desperate...And desperation spurs deseperate acts. No one is going to be happy watching the resources continuously flow unevenly in the other direction. There is an internal sense of equity which seems to be violated under such conditions.."Why should they have more and I have less?"..and "Why won't they share?".. There have always existed social hierarchies which are justified by religion. People have long accepted a lower station under the belief that it was divine order. When you disabuse them of this thinking they become like Dorothy revealing the truth about the great Oz..They become hostile..
No...I think you are overstating this. Religion is not counterintuitive..it is actually the opposite. Most people see complexity in nature and intuitively seek an intelligence to credit. The most primitive mind can clearly grasp the idea that something does not come from nothing. they also see within their environment order and a seeming cooperation in nature which provides for the living. Basic anthropology teaches such...religion is the natural way of human.
To take it away for many would mean that someone better have resources to give the people and fast...
You don't have to hold anyone responsible..That won't stop the the duct tape from rolling across your mouth, and the rope being tied around your legs and wrists. It won't stop invaders from yanking the pearls from around your neck so violently that your flesh is torn.
The goal should be the truth, however, the result of the truth will also be the truth which means that preparations should be made.
That is the way it is intended...
Once again..as I have stated previously, religion is the causeway into wisdom for those willing to stay the course, however it is also the coolant for those who would rise against everyone...
There are many examples of how revolutions begin among those who are oppressed and have no hope...
When this is all said and done I will make my closing argument as it relates to the existence of God..until then be patient...Take it slow...
Whirling Moat
(May 13, 2011 at 9:12 am)tackattack Wrote: I thnk it's just meant to be an intellectual excercise, not nearly as inflamatory as the title suggests.
I think it would benefit society in the long term if people took more personal accountability in this life. It might be temporarily chaotic if the shift was as sudden as "Ok now let's mentally switch theist optimism and atheistic materialism populations now", but if it was as gradual as is normal for societies, it would be a tense adjustment period then better I'd think.
I suppose the title is more inflammatory than I intended.
I would generally agree with the idea of people taking more personal responsibility for their lot in life. I think that the poor would however argue that the deck itself is stacked against them in many instances which makes the whole bootstrap thing pretty difficult..They don't have boots... And quite frankly they would have a point. The poor are typically reared in below standard educational systems, have a diet of subpar food, exist in a state of hyperstress due to the danger of living in such environments, and if you are a black or hispanic it gets worse. The term "priviledged" is not meaningless. There are actual advantages provided to the rich. They have superior education, superior food, superior vehicles, and safe environments which stimulate thought. The rich enjoy the luxury of time for contemplation thus enriching themselves and extending the benefit of their wealth and advantage.
I think we all understand this...So, why not go level the playing field and take from the rich? If your life is relatively stable you probably see taking resources from others as wrong...but when you are in need and desperate it doesn't appear wrong to the same degree. The message of leveling the playing field resonates with the poor. When the rich refuse to level the playing field, revolutions are born. Religion has always been used to cool anger...Religion promotes tolerance..But without an afterlife why should one tolerate living in an environment where they are at a disadvantage and then the story ends?
Peace...
Quote:Ironically and with great caution I agree with you to some extent.. It is a unsettling uncomfortable truth that many people NEED religion like a drug until they slowly get through withdrawal.. I've witnessed people go backwards when they internally wrestle with the realization that there is no Daddy in the sky looking out for them.. I mean that's all they have in life....
People NEED hope. And when they run out of hope they become desperate...And desperation spurs deseperate acts. No one is going to be happy watching the resources continuously flow unevenly in the other direction. There is an internal sense of equity which seems to be violated under such conditions.."Why should they have more and I have less?"..and "Why won't they share?".. There have always existed social hierarchies which are justified by religion. People have long accepted a lower station under the belief that it was divine order. When you disabuse them of this thinking they become like Dorothy revealing the truth about the great Oz..They become hostile..
Quote:People are not religious because they logically deduce it to be a good thing.. They are religious because it is their identity.. They are emotionally, traditionally and psychologically tied to the idea of a God.. To remove this idea without putting forth an alternative for many would mean psychosis..
No...I think you are overstating this. Religion is not counterintuitive..it is actually the opposite. Most people see complexity in nature and intuitively seek an intelligence to credit. The most primitive mind can clearly grasp the idea that something does not come from nothing. they also see within their environment order and a seeming cooperation in nature which provides for the living. Basic anthropology teaches such...religion is the natural way of human.
To take it away for many would mean that someone better have resources to give the people and fast...
Quote:But here is the thing.. Atheists are not doctors.. or psychologists.. and are not responsible for the God drug the public feeds upon.. I do think it would behoove us to be more careful if possible but I would not hold anyone responsible.. Not generally.. I leave that to those who seek or proclaim themselves enlightened leaders...
You don't have to hold anyone responsible..That won't stop the the duct tape from rolling across your mouth, and the rope being tied around your legs and wrists. It won't stop invaders from yanking the pearls from around your neck so violently that your flesh is torn.
Quote:In addition, liberation of a mind should be the goal.. even in the face of the reality of that it may take some time..
The goal should be the truth, however, the result of the truth will also be the truth which means that preparations should be made.
Quote:I know men who have gotten off drugs.. stopped beating women.. and reduced their promiscuity when they became more religious.. Because they needed something to respect AND fear to aid their transformation..
That is the way it is intended...
Quote:As far as I know there is no alternative to this.. that is free, effective, immediate and generally supported by friends/family.. Also, many religious peoples sense of justice is wrapped up in their belief.. they see no hope for man adequately adjudicating fairness within society and pyschologically cope by believing that heaven will effect justice as it should be done.. (of course controlling for their own inability to adequately assess what justice "is"- possibly hampered by selfishness or greed)
Once again..as I have stated previously, religion is the causeway into wisdom for those willing to stay the course, however it is also the coolant for those who would rise against everyone...
Quote:Moat.. in spite of all of this the flaw I see in your argument is to suppress truth in favor of a lie in hopes of reducing casualties of the mind and less peace in society.. however, you have no evidence that this would happen en masse or enough to be destabilizing..
There are many examples of how revolutions begin among those who are oppressed and have no hope...
Quote:and even if you did.. It would not make God real.. true.. or necessary.. It would simply mean enlightened atheists would have to figure out what to do with those strung out on God drugs and continue to suffer delusions..
When this is all said and done I will make my closing argument as it relates to the existence of God..until then be patient...Take it slow...
Whirling Moat
