RE: Evidence for God being "a superior being" ?
June 9, 2011 at 9:58 am
(This post was last modified: June 9, 2011 at 10:03 am by Zenith.)
ok tack, here is my reply. I hope you're happy now.
It's pretty hard for me to follow all this when it started, it seems to be regarding God's omnipotence as described in the bible.
So, I'll show some verses that talk about God's power, I think that would be best (also, "omnipotence" is not written in the bible, so it's probably best not to invent terms, but simply say how it is described in the bible):
Gen 18.13-14 (the subject was a baby to be born to an old man and an old woman); Job 42.1-2 (regarding Job 40, 41), Jeremiah 32.17, 27; Zechariah 8.6; Matthew 19.23-26, Mark 10.25-27, Mark 14.36, Luke 1.37, 18.27. (that's all I could find right now).
If I missed something important, perhaps you'll tell me.
By the way tack, how exactly do you see this thing with hell? is it an eternal suffering or how do you understand it? (if you do not understand it as an eternal suffering, perhaps you can give me some verses to see how based your point is).
It's pretty hard to figure what this subject is actually about.
A question tack: you say you're an non-denominational christian. how then do you lean on a church??
And what exactly do you say about Satan & God speaking in our minds?
And yeah, I guess there was also the subject of God commanding evil things to be done. If so, I would only answer if we have a specific case we're talking about.
Welsh cake said "Point is my atoms *carry on existing*. Your God concept whether he exists or not *cannot* destroy my body (matter) entirely because".
First off, I think "destroy" (as found in Matthew 10.28) refers to killing, rather than "destroy entirely"
What I've found the word "destroy" of Matthew 10.28 in greek, to mean:
Second off, I don't think you continue your existence (as we talk about religion, and therefore, life & afterlife) here, in this world, through your atoms, but instead, you cease your existence when you die. Some time after you die, your atoms may be parts of plants, of animals, and even other human beings, as they were long before you were born.
also "...because that would violate the fundamental laws of physics with regards to the Law of Conservation of Mass, so this theologian belief is already proven to be false as far as Empirical laws are concerned and you've yet to demonstrate a soul actually exists, let alone god(s)."
So, now we're saying that an all-powerful God that created matter out of nothing cannot destroy matter (so that it would not exist anymore)?
Or I missed something important?
So it seems that the main discussion is about where and what heaven & hell are.
The interesting thing is that in the bible heaven & hell are not used as we use them: The "heaven" is what we call spiritual world (though I'm not very sure how people understood "spiritual world" 2000+ years ago), i.e. the 'dimension' where God & angels are (I use here "dimension", because no matter where you seek on earth or in the sky, you will not find anything, so we must be talking about some kind of two different worlds, other dimensions or something). On the other hand "hell" is usually used in KJV to translate the "hades" or "sheol", which is the place where people's souls go after people die (so hades is in heaven, because heaven = the spiritual world). On the other hand, "kingdom of heaven" or "kingdom of God" is used for what people now call "heaven", and when people say "X will go to heaven", that should be translated as something like: X will become a 'citizen' in that kingdom - he will belong there, etc.
ok, now if we try to speak about what people currently understand of "hell", that's a bit hard for me, as hell was not the most interesting thing for me to study. But, it seems that we have a term "lake of fire" (as in Revelation 20.10; though in Revelation 20.14-15 it sounds as if that lake of fire has a rather destroying effect - because death will exist no longer). We also have "Gehenna" translated in KJV as "hell" in verses like Matthew 10.28, for which I found a short description saying "This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were". It appears that in this valley "was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch, i.e. of an idol having the form of a bull. The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by King Josiah (2 Kings 23.10) that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed. And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by their putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called ...". And I don't know from where tack got the idea that hell must have been eternal (to have existed since eternity or something)
As about "becoming one with God", I don't think the concept in the bible is the same as in hinduism ("all are one"), i.e. it's not a merging. I think in the bible it rather refers to becoming more in the likeness of God - in morality and other things of the mind and 'heart'.
As about "God not present in hell" idea you were talking about, I don't know any verse to say that God's omnipresence is impeded by hell.
I mean to all this:
Or perhaps I simply didn't understand tack's point.
As about what welsh cake said, namely: "If God doesn't believe in Gods does that make him an atheist too? Will he be condemned by some higher God/deity for simply not believing without evidence too? ;P"
well, God is not an atheist: God knows that Himself exists and that He is [a] God.
There was also a theory of the existence of a God, a creator of the God of Abraham (which is, the biblical God). That Goddess (it was a woman) was called Sophia and was the goddess of the spiritual world, while the God of Abraham was the God of the material world, and was ignorant of His creator and boasted Himself that He is the only God - this was gnosticism, by the way, in some gnostic views & theories, the God of Abraham was evil, but only in some.
Anyway, the fact is: If God existed in nothingness and everything that came into existence was created by Him and by Him alone, and He existed for an eternity (without a beginning), then it is logical to say that He is the only God.
Know that "evil" does not mean "injustice" or "diabolical" or something else. It's simply "I do evil to you" = "I harm you" - whether I leave someone to beat you or I send a meteor to crush you (it is "evil" I do to you). Also consider the whole verse: peace versus evil! so evil it is distress, trouble, problems, war, etc. - evil things that may happen to someone. On the other hand "wickedness" seems to refer to morality.
so here it's about the soul... the fact is that I don't know for sure how people 2000+ years ago understood the "soul", they used it for a kind of "the inner man - who you are, leaving out the body" (at least in the New Testament, as in 2 corinthians 4.16 - as about the old testament, it seems they only describe it as continuing your life after you die). Anyway, I don't think the existence of the soul can be demonstrated, at least for now. It's rather like this: you believe in one God or in many gods, who teach by the specific religious books the existence of soul => you believe that the soul exist. So if you're christian, you believe in life after death, if you're a muslim, you believe in life after death, etc. and if you're a deist, you believe what you want (which is most surely something like "who knows?").
Do I get a cookie now?
(July 16, 2010 at 6:29 pm)Welsh cake Wrote:
It's pretty hard for me to follow all this when it started, it seems to be regarding God's omnipotence as described in the bible.
So, I'll show some verses that talk about God's power, I think that would be best (also, "omnipotence" is not written in the bible, so it's probably best not to invent terms, but simply say how it is described in the bible):
Gen 18.13-14 (the subject was a baby to be born to an old man and an old woman); Job 42.1-2 (regarding Job 40, 41), Jeremiah 32.17, 27; Zechariah 8.6; Matthew 19.23-26, Mark 10.25-27, Mark 14.36, Luke 1.37, 18.27. (that's all I could find right now).
If I missed something important, perhaps you'll tell me.
Quote:If you ask me that question tack, I would feel sorry for anything that I realize that I did bad. If I died and found myself in front of Zeus and all other greek gods, and they would ask me "why didn't you believe we are the true gods?" I'd say "well, sorry (as it seems the gods are upset)... but I didn't know". Or if I found myself in the front of Allah, and He would accuse me of not killing infidels or something and refusing to believe the Qur'an, well, He would throw me in hell, but at least I'd have the conviction that I'm innocent (I didn't start to kill innocents insanely).
By the way tack, how exactly do you see this thing with hell? is it an eternal suffering or how do you understand it? (if you do not understand it as an eternal suffering, perhaps you can give me some verses to see how based your point is).
Quote:
It's pretty hard to figure what this subject is actually about.
A question tack: you say you're an non-denominational christian. how then do you lean on a church??
And what exactly do you say about Satan & God speaking in our minds?
And yeah, I guess there was also the subject of God commanding evil things to be done. If so, I would only answer if we have a specific case we're talking about.
Quote:About the destroying of the body...tackattack Wrote:4- No. The compound defined as your body would seperate and become just atoms. All compounds we currently define as bodies (thusly no longer being a body) will deconstruct themselves to atoms as part of the natural process.That's oversimplifying it just a tad; my body is not literally a chemical compound (singular) it's made up of many compounds, biological structures and cellular components such as proteins, carbohydrates, lipids, nucleic acids and other biomolecules.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition...human_body
Welsh cake said "Point is my atoms *carry on existing*. Your God concept whether he exists or not *cannot* destroy my body (matter) entirely because".
First off, I think "destroy" (as found in Matthew 10.28) refers to killing, rather than "destroy entirely"
What I've found the word "destroy" of Matthew 10.28 in greek, to mean:
Second off, I don't think you continue your existence (as we talk about religion, and therefore, life & afterlife) here, in this world, through your atoms, but instead, you cease your existence when you die. Some time after you die, your atoms may be parts of plants, of animals, and even other human beings, as they were long before you were born.
also "...because that would violate the fundamental laws of physics with regards to the Law of Conservation of Mass, so this theologian belief is already proven to be false as far as Empirical laws are concerned and you've yet to demonstrate a soul actually exists, let alone god(s)."
So, now we're saying that an all-powerful God that created matter out of nothing cannot destroy matter (so that it would not exist anymore)?
Or I missed something important?
Quote:tackattack Wrote:5- How can you discombobulate my ideas that badly? Hell is just as eternal as heaven. If heaven is a state of becoming one with God (which I believe it is) then Hell would be the opposite a "state" of being separate from God. If space exists after the universe's end then it would be wherever God isn't residing.First off, you are refuting the notion of god's omnipresence not me, so please define him in a clear positive ontology, or have a meaningful characterisation at least if it's not too much trouble. Second, I thought you monotheists assert that only god alone is eternal and there is no other like him? And don't you also believe, by corollary, that becoming one with god i.e. becoming god himself is as impossible as it is blasphemous?
So it seems that the main discussion is about where and what heaven & hell are.
The interesting thing is that in the bible heaven & hell are not used as we use them: The "heaven" is what we call spiritual world (though I'm not very sure how people understood "spiritual world" 2000+ years ago), i.e. the 'dimension' where God & angels are (I use here "dimension", because no matter where you seek on earth or in the sky, you will not find anything, so we must be talking about some kind of two different worlds, other dimensions or something). On the other hand "hell" is usually used in KJV to translate the "hades" or "sheol", which is the place where people's souls go after people die (so hades is in heaven, because heaven = the spiritual world). On the other hand, "kingdom of heaven" or "kingdom of God" is used for what people now call "heaven", and when people say "X will go to heaven", that should be translated as something like: X will become a 'citizen' in that kingdom - he will belong there, etc.
ok, now if we try to speak about what people currently understand of "hell", that's a bit hard for me, as hell was not the most interesting thing for me to study. But, it seems that we have a term "lake of fire" (as in Revelation 20.10; though in Revelation 20.14-15 it sounds as if that lake of fire has a rather destroying effect - because death will exist no longer). We also have "Gehenna" translated in KJV as "hell" in verses like Matthew 10.28, for which I found a short description saying "This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were". It appears that in this valley "was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch, i.e. of an idol having the form of a bull. The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by King Josiah (2 Kings 23.10) that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed. And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by their putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called ...". And I don't know from where tack got the idea that hell must have been eternal (to have existed since eternity or something)
As about "becoming one with God", I don't think the concept in the bible is the same as in hinduism ("all are one"), i.e. it's not a merging. I think in the bible it rather refers to becoming more in the likeness of God - in morality and other things of the mind and 'heart'.
As about "God not present in hell" idea you were talking about, I don't know any verse to say that God's omnipresence is impeded by hell.
Quote:This topic you're talking about sounds a kind of "what the hell??"tackattack Wrote:6- I also don't see why you can't contribute your lacking relationship with God to the "wrong doing" in your life.What "wrong doing" is there in my life tack?
I mean to all this:
Or perhaps I simply didn't understand tack's point.
As about what welsh cake said, namely: "If God doesn't believe in Gods does that make him an atheist too? Will he be condemned by some higher God/deity for simply not believing without evidence too? ;P"
well, God is not an atheist: God knows that Himself exists and that He is [a] God.
There was also a theory of the existence of a God, a creator of the God of Abraham (which is, the biblical God). That Goddess (it was a woman) was called Sophia and was the goddess of the spiritual world, while the God of Abraham was the God of the material world, and was ignorant of His creator and boasted Himself that He is the only God - this was gnosticism, by the way, in some gnostic views & theories, the God of Abraham was evil, but only in some.
Anyway, the fact is: If God existed in nothingness and everything that came into existence was created by Him and by Him alone, and He existed for an eternity (without a beginning), then it is logical to say that He is the only God.
Quote:
Know that "evil" does not mean "injustice" or "diabolical" or something else. It's simply "I do evil to you" = "I harm you" - whether I leave someone to beat you or I send a meteor to crush you (it is "evil" I do to you). Also consider the whole verse: peace versus evil! so evil it is distress, trouble, problems, war, etc. - evil things that may happen to someone. On the other hand "wickedness" seems to refer to morality.
Quote:tackattack Wrote:7- A soul is the hypothetical immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life. You either have a materialstic view or one that allows for the immaterial. I'll assume you're a materialist?Depends on the subject matter; I suppose you could ordinarily call me a naturalist, but within philosophical debates I tend to use materialism and physicalism interchangeably. Back to the soul: can you demonstrate to me its existence? Can you falsify or refute it? Or is this all mental masturbation with metaphysics?
so here it's about the soul... the fact is that I don't know for sure how people 2000+ years ago understood the "soul", they used it for a kind of "the inner man - who you are, leaving out the body" (at least in the New Testament, as in 2 corinthians 4.16 - as about the old testament, it seems they only describe it as continuing your life after you die). Anyway, I don't think the existence of the soul can be demonstrated, at least for now. It's rather like this: you believe in one God or in many gods, who teach by the specific religious books the existence of soul => you believe that the soul exist. So if you're christian, you believe in life after death, if you're a muslim, you believe in life after death, etc. and if you're a deist, you believe what you want (which is most surely something like "who knows?").
(June 9, 2011 at 12:05 am)tackattack Wrote: What Zenith you're going to necropost and not even respond to the last post... or mine.... no cookies for you.
Do I get a cookie now?
