Greek Tragedy ( Capitalism in crisis....again! )

[reverendjeremiah]

Ah right, the part where you're going to complain about Mercantilism but attach some pointless qualifier to capitalism and throw it in quotes the same way people use "Cronie Capitalism" when attacking Mercantilism...

1. Capitalism prescribes no such thing as "socialise the losses", quite the contrary, it says that losses are a sign you're wasting resources and being inefficient, a warning that similar practices could lead to failure. Under a capitalist system there would be no rescuing of collapsed companies by the taxpayer - they would be sold to a competitor or entrepreneur who would re-tool the business and attempt to compete, the investors would recover the value of the sale .....

Here we go with the mercantilism thing again. Is it me or do only the Libertarians bring that word up anymore? You do realize this is the 21st century..not the 18th? So let me start this with a resounding "hell no I wasnt talking about mercantilism". I was very much describing Modern Capitalism. As far as you saying there are no profits in Greece, I find that to be the biggest dishonest and generalizing quote I have ever read from you.

Because you can't do math? It's patently unsustainable! And it's 58 sorry, 52 is partial retirement and 56 is the average on record.

Someone works from 18-56 on average (a lot of Greeks are in tertiary education but many also work from a younger age), 38 years, then lives to 78 (average Greek life expectancy) they have retired for 24 years relative to 38 of work. They have 38 years work to pay for 24 years retirement at 80% of their last wage. If the average person earned the equivalent of 400,000 Euros over their life, 10,526 per year, they get back 8,421 on average per year for 24 years, 202,104 Euro or 50% of what they've earned on average as an individual - And this is assuming everyone works, it doesn't take into account any beneficiaries which only make the numbers more staggering.

Your insult withstanding that I "cant do the math", I was unaware of early retirement in Greece. This does change my original position. The system does need some tweeking if your numbers are correct.

You're assuming that Social Security in Greece is funded via the corporate income tax, this is false, Greece has contributions from the employer and employee, 28% of the wages value compared to 16% from the employee, 6% shy of the average needed to sustain the scheme with the generous figures above, and it's expected to cover unemployment and health insurance too! These payments by an employer are a transaction classed as an expense and are completely aside from income which is taxed after these contributions have been made - "Why did you not know this?" because you didn't look, you're of the mindset that every problem is somehow linked to business and taxes, if corporate tax is going down well look no further, that's gota be why Greece has a huge debt problem - You want to know why corporate tax is going down? Because they need people to invest in Greece but nobody in their right mind want's to, they have to make it attractive because they need the trade, industry, jobs and revenues.

..and allow me to point out that you also are of the mindset that every problem is linked to business and taxes as well, otherwise you would not be a libertarian. Your view is that taxes should be rock bottom or non-existant and that businesses should be allowed much more freedom. If they are not given these benefits, then you have claimed many times that it "kills the economy". So dont try to act as if I am biased and you are not. We are BOTH biased. Am I allowed to point out that the mass majority of the worlds wealth is held in the hands of just a few right now? Its difficult to get investors when most of the cash is being sat upon by a small percentage of wealthy people. These wealthy people are also being granted more and more leniency to keep their cash. We need to get this money circulating again. We need to put the profit motive back into the moneyed owners again.

Greece is nowhere near as pro business as you're suggesting either, considering this little left-wing nation with a 40% of GDP public sector is apparently being run by "modern capitalists" - For instance, Greece taxes 20% of the total value of any commercial entity when it is sold as a whole or upon larger acquisitions and mergers, that means if you want to sell a business the government takes 20% of it's value outright. Also, considering the profit is taxed, then dividends are taxed and salaries are taxed, an income tax rate of 20-25% alone is a rather dubious method painting the picture.

Greece is left wing? And from what I saw of the tax exemptions, Greece very much appears to be pro business to me.

Okay, but how about a source and not a picture?

The source was posted just above the picture

Isn't that funny, you're figures leave off the top tax bracket, even for 2008, and they're not quite the recent figures are they?

Tax % The Tax Base (EURO)
0 1-12,000
18 12,001-16,000
24 16,001-22,000
26 22,001-26,000
32 26,001-32,000
36 32,001-40,000
38 40,001-60,000
40 60,001-100,000
45 100,001 and over

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/greece/greece_tax.asp

That is funny, seeing as I have pulled up another site that backs up my original list (http://www.taxrates.cc/html/greece-tax-rates.html) and then claims that your VAT percentage is WAY to high below. You said its 23%, this site says it is 19%. I am starting to realize that not only YOU have based your position on faulty numbers and percentages, but I have also fallen victim to the same problem.

"I will remind you that the price of milk doesnt change regardless of wether you make 1$ an hour or $10,000 an hour." Red Herring, this has fuck all to do with their debt crisis, I can find you countries with lower wages, taxes and smaller debt problems easily, Greece is compared to the rest of the world in a group of moderate to high incomes.

Excuse me? The price of milk is a red herring when discussing incomes and taxes? Im going to assume that you were not being rude to me.

And stopping this would have prevented a debt crisis how? These are all measures to give Greece an advantage over foreign competitors and to make Greek businesses more attractive to investors both foreign and nationally, being an export economy no tariffs on imports lowers the cost of living for all consumers... you speak as if these would hurt their position... I hardly think so. Besides, how many dozen countries around the world are comparable with these conditions? I'm willing to bet it's a substantial number, these are relatively commonplace policies yet Greece is the one in a debt crisis, so they're clearly insubstantial.

Greece is also having major problems with tax evaders as well.

You haven't given one single example, let alone shown it to be anything like a significant factor in their situation, and yet you assert "Anyone with a basic understanding of economics can see that"...

Their problem is not enough producing, too much consuming, too much entitlement. They consume more than they produce in their country, they need to borrow to sustain that, they didn't bother to invest in production, it's not a difficult thing to grasp, yet all you've done is rave about tax rates which couldn't possibly account for the massive void in their trade deficit even if taxes were higher and you haven't so much as described one causal chain for any of it.

People who use the word "entitlements" to describe services bought and paid for in advance are being dishonest. I have also pointed out that your tax numbers may be right or wrong, as well as mine. The problem I have with you right now is that using my original tax numbers, I have shown MANY reasons why the system failed.

"The problem in Greece will only get worse as the years go by. Why? Because the same people who are screaming "taxing the rich will kill jobs" fail to point out that the tax rates on the rich HAVE been going down and there is a direct connection between the decline of jobs and the decline of tax rates for the rich"

*Yawn*.

I figured you would act like that. So childish.

Have you really failed to understand the specific situation in Greece to the extent where all you're going to do is spout rhetoric?

Simply put, there are examples of nations that are either side of Greece in terms of wages, taxes, size of the public sector, private sector, regulations and the like but the vast majority of them are in nowhere near the situation Greece is in, the fundamental difference in most cases is not the tax level or whether family members can sell each other businesses or whether corporate tax is 20% or 35%, it's their failure to support a productive sector significant enough to generate the wealth needed to sustain their standards of living.

The man who types "*YAWN*" as a response turns right around and claims I am doing nothing but spouting Rhetoric? Really mature...really mature.