Greek Tragedy ( Capitalism in crisis....again! )

[theVOID]

Here we go with the mercantilism thing again. Is it me or do only the Libertarians bring that word up anymore? You do realize this is the 21st century..not the 18th? So let me start this with a resounding "hell no I wasnt talking about mercantilism". I was very much describing Modern Capitalism. As far as you saying there are no profits in Greece, I find that to be the biggest dishonest and generalizing quote I have ever read from you.

It's not really something you hear too often amongst them, seeing as it was popularised by someone out of the active political scene, Michael Shermer, before he'd used it in his book I hadn't really heard much of it as a description for the current economic situation (I only knew of it's historic context) and I picked it up from there, but aside from people who know that book I've seen little discussion on it. Mercantilism, as it was during the industrial revolution and the period following it, is far more akin to this current situation than anything else. Shermer has a good argument for the use of the term in his book "Mind of the markets" if you're interested and it largely has to do with the economic protectionism of private interests by the state that is prevalent in both and it's use of discriminatory trade practices to favour local producers at the expense of the consumer and it's subsidies on enormous scales to favourite industries, especially using the revenues taken from individuals.

The situation as it is now is nothing like capitalism and free markets, this fucking global scam where former politicians sit on the boards of corporate bodies in their droves, the likes of Al Gore and Clinton essentially acting as Venture Capitalists through all their old contacts who have the sweet deals they helped instate, whole chains of leadership associated with massive corporate interests who use the power we literally give to these people to create the conditions they desire, where these massive international organisations are stocked with huge corporate giants and taxpayer funded representatives who have all the power to make their own deals and secure their liability free actions with taxpayer money, setting up exclusive long-term deals with their buddies at Microsoft or giving billion dollar contracts to Electrical and chemical companies, setting up the markets so their friends in power have an unfair advantage of everyone else and where all their buddies are too big to fail - It's got fuck all to do with capitalism, there isn't shit that's free about that, this isn't free individuals using their earnings as they see fit, choosing their own investments, having a real chance to compete and where small businesses have a fair shot at the market because it isn't sold off in big contracts by the force of the state.

If you're thinking there's some big winner in Greece right now then who? It's not the banks, they're owed billions their unlikely to get back, it's not the businesses, they're mostly service sector and are up shit-creek when nobody has money to spend or when tourism flops, not the EU, they have to muster a large portion of their wealth in an attempt to keep Greece from defaulting by paying the debt that matures, it's not the foreign investors who are seeing the market collapse and their losses stack up, it's certainly not the Greeks who are being fucked over by decades of bullshit finally hitting the fan - Are there individuals who are profiting from Greece, sure but fuck all, not compared to what has been lost and what their counterparts get in financially stable nations - There is no big winner here, period.

You want an inside to their situation, go have a read http://www.asecu.gr/Seeje/issue06/katsios.pdf

Your insult withstanding that I "cant do the math", I was unaware of early retirement in Greece. This does change my original position. The system does need some tweeking if your numbers are correct.

You said above you had no problem with it above, now you're changing your mind? My numbers are really generous, I didn't account for a single beneficiary or healthcare cost even though all of them are in the social security pool that the people are expected to pay for.

..and allow me to point out that you also are of the mindset that every problem is linked to business and taxes as well, otherwise you would not be a libertarian.

That makes no sense... I see problems of entitlement blow-outs as problems related to entitlements, I see problems of debt as related to unsustainable borrowing and then consider the economic factors, I see problems of malinvestment as neither necessarily to do with business or tax, for instance a state grant to a community project that fails. I could list other scenarios but I hope by now I've made my point, the tax rates in the specific situation and the power of the business owners in the political landscape can be significant in some situations but in others they're insignificant or merely a small piece of the picture - The situation in Greece is not one where tax rates or political corruption or corporate lobbyists had the major role, it's one in a country that was sold unrealistic promises by zealous politicians who took vast sums of money in taxes from individuals and businesses designed to provide long-term and stable social services but managed to fuck up their investment so completely that they actually shrunk the productive sector over the last few decades and dug themselves into a situation where they are spending more on entitlements than they take in, where their revenues (mostly service sector related) drop sharply following a global recession and where the apparent urgency of it's station finally becomes noticed - Greece has been borrowing unsustainably for decades, all the corporate fuckery with the banks and investors that slapped them from over seas wasn't the cause of this, it was simply the catalyst for the illusion to crumble.

Your view is that taxes should be rock bottom or non-existant and that businesses should be allowed much more freedom.

None of this is at all relevant to Greece, but to clarify;

Some businesses gain freedom, others loose privilege - Considering how vast the state backed entities stretch that's a fair number who would, given the implementation of such a system, see much of their privilege cease to exist.

Businesses should have more 'freedom' in that they should be able to trade with anyone they like for any terms they agree upon, that's more of an issue of moral authority than anything else, a suggestion that we should have no right to tell any two consenting individuals or organisations what they can and can not do, we only have any legitimate authority to act when people are imposing on others without consent. I apply this principle consistently across all my views, seeing as moral positions are very much at the core of any world-view, I see no legitimate reason why the thought should depend on how much is being sold or whether someone else aside from this situation has healthcare or not. My individualism/libertarianism is a direct result of this principle, If you wanted to persuade me against it this would be where you'd have to start.

If they are not given these benefits, then you have claimed many times that it "kills the economy".

Bullshit i've said that.

So dont try to act as if I am biased and you are not. We are BOTH biased. Am I allowed to point out that the mass majority of the worlds wealth is held in the hands of just a few right now? Its difficult to get investors when most of the cash is being sat upon by a small percentage of wealthy people. These wealthy people are also being granted more and more leniency to keep their cash. We need to get this money circulating again. We need to put the profit motive back into the moneyed owners again.

I already said I believe this balance of power is a symptom of a system where those entrusted with power have questionable interests in a wide range of private entities. Your solution of taking the wealth from those with more whether or not they have done anything what-so-ever untoward to obtain it is immoral in my view, those who have been found to impose force should be taken from and those who have not should be given the opportunity to compete in a market that isn't tainted by back room deals.

Greece is left wing? And from what I saw of the tax exemptions, Greece very much appears to be pro business to me.

Sure they are, 40% of their entire GDP is public sector, that's freaking left-wing, not to mention that almost no government spending is in industry, it's almost entirely public service related... Out of all income, profit, spending, selling and the like the government is responsible for 40%... Massive public sector. Their tax exemptions are nothing unusual and actually rather protectionist, Greeks probably face higher prices for foreign goods and services for it, a likely contribution to their debt problem considering their reliance on foreign goods.

The source was posted just above the picture

Whoops didn't catch that.

That is funny, seeing as I have pulled up another site that backs up my original list (http://www.taxrates.cc/html/greece-tax-rates.html) and then claims that your VAT percentage is WAY to high below. You said its 23%, this site says it is 19%. I am starting to realize that not only YOU have based your position on faulty numbers and percentages, but I have also fallen victim to the same problem.

I had checked, obviously not enough there is a ton of contrary data, just like when I was digging up their employment data... good luck finding anything official. I had two other sources with the same figures as mine so assumed them safe though now looking I've found shit-loads of contrary information, two for the numbers you cited too, plus or minus some small differences and some that are different again and some about part way. I've found 3 other sources for VAT at 23% and wiki says 4% to 23% and less for goods, also there are sources for the income tax numbers that are different for 2008 on other websites. Another source has 13% for VAT... And different numbers for income.

I can't find anything resembling a report from the Greek treasury either,

Components of taxation > Corporate income tax 10.4%
Components of taxation > Goods and service tax 37.3%
Components of taxation > Personal income tax 14%
Components of taxation > Social security > Contribution by employer 15.5%
Components of taxation > Social security > Employees contribution 12.7%

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/country/...tion&all=1

Excuse me? The price of milk is a red herring when discussing incomes and taxes? Im going to assume that you were not being rude to me.

You're the one who's attempting to make this a discussion about income and taxes, it's by immediately shifting your focus to that as always that you're missing the big picture, the cause of the Greek situation has little to do with either because was it otherwise you would see other nations with similar rations in income and tax facing similar situations, you'll find most nations in a similar position are doing relatively well.

Greece is also having major problems with tax evaders as well.

Umm, wow, nice dodge.

Yeah, tax evaders are a problem, a problem caused by the emergence of their shadow economy, something caused by more fundamental problems.

People who use the word "entitlements" to describe services bought and paid for in advance are being dishonest.

What else does entitlement mean? A service that a person has a right to access to? Well gosh darn that's exactly what I was talking about. What the fuck is implicit in the word entitlement that mean one could not be talking about a paid in advance? Oh, and for the record, the services are NOT being paid for in advance, their youth are paying directly for the expenses of the retired population, there is no money left, they wasted it, they failed to invest it in any industry that could have possibly generated the income needed to sustain the long term costs!

I have also pointed out that your tax numbers may be right or wrong, as well as mine. The problem I have with you right now is that using my original tax numbers, I have shown MANY reasons why the system failed.

I don't know where you think you made this point but I'm unaware of any explanation you've given beyond citing tax numbers and then asserting cause. As I have said about a half dozen times now that you have not acknowledged; Other countries have very similar tax situations and expenses and have NOT fallen into a situation anything like Greece - This means for you to claim that this specific tax ratio is the cause means you are required to explain why this situation is not present in other similar scenarios - when you do you'll soon see that by focusing on taxes you've failed massively oversimplified and ignored the most important data, you've failed to notice the absolute stupidity that is the structure of the Greek economy, the massive reliance on imports, the piss-weak productive sector, the amount of people employed not to generate wealth in any way but to provide pleasure to those who already have it and the massive gap between the costs of "entitlements" and the revenue gained or invested to support them (which ties strongly back into the general structure of the economy) - These factors are so much more significant than any debate over a few percent of tax proportions that I'm quite blatantly dumbfounded by your continuing to ignore them.

The man who types "*YAWN*" as a response turns right around and claims I am doing nothing but spouting Rhetoric? Really mature...really mature.

I wasn't aware "Yawn" was a common rhetorical device, it was there to show my boredom with your assertions.

And through all of that you failed to even acknowledge my point which is evidence in direct contradiction to your conclusions about the causes of the Greek crisis, other nations with similar circumstances regarding taxes. Do you think I am mistaken in my observation? If so then explain why, but for the time being you haven't addressed it and it's a substantial objection to the very core of what you are claiming.