(March 13, 2017 at 12:04 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:(March 13, 2017 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: The 'subjective' objection is thought in popular circles to be the problem with the argument but isn't this just an escape route designed not to have to address(March 13, 2017 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: the fact that being all powerful is greater than be limited in power,
The universe could care less whether you are all powerful or limited in power. The question only matters to subjects that might have an interest in the benefits of being all powerful, but no interest in the benefits of being limited in power. I told you what you had to show in order to demonstrate that something like being all powerful is objectively great and you just ignored it. Whether you can imagine being limited in power as being more desirable than being all powerful is irrelevant. All you've done is give me your subjective opinion that being all powerful is better than being of limited power. And given all possible worlds, there will clearly be beings that think it is 'better' to have limited power. The problem is not in stating things which you think are without peer, you have to define 'better' in objective terms, not simply provide a laundry list of things which you think are without peer. Your inability to understand this basic point is a failing in your ability to distinguish between subjective and objective. Even if all beings in all possible worlds preferred being all powerful to being limited in power, that would still be a subjectively 'better' property to have. All you've done is provide a laundry list of properties that you assert are objectively great; you haven't given any reason whatsoever for me to believe that these are anything but subjective preferences. I'm beginning to think you don't understand the difference between subjective and objective, and that you're just mouthing irrelevant distinctions you've heard elsewhere.
What difference does it make whether you are all powerful or not, which isn't a difference of preference as would be given by a mind?
First, I appreciate the opportunity to fine-tune my argumentation skills on a subject we have already discussed. Thanks!
You can't switch out 'better' for 'greater'. They are not the same thing. Being all-powerful is greater (more than) than being limited in power. Being all-knowing is greater (more than) than being limited. Now, I agree that in some cases it would be better to have limited knowledge (for example, it could be overwhelming). It would also be better not to have omnipotence if one was not also morally perfect.
Quote:(March 13, 2017 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: all-knowing is greater than limited knowledge, and morally perfect is greater than morally defective--and all three clearly great-making properties.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. All three are subjectively great, given appropriate subjects. It is not enough that these are "clearly great-making properties." In order for the argument to work, they must be 'objectively' great, which can't be shown because the idea of something being "objectively better" than something else is incoherent. I don't think you understand the difference.
Let's take a popular example. In a store window is a sign that says, "Fast - Good - Cheap -- Pick any two." If properties are objectively better and worse than one another, then you should have little difficulty explaining which pair is the best, or that they are all equally good FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF SOMEONE HAVING NO PREFERENCES.
Notice you switch to 'better' (bold) above. That is how you make your argument work. If you can't use the word 'greater', than you are probably talking about something that not a great-making property (like you food example).
Quote:(March 13, 2017 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: The desired confusion that you want/need is when you start adding properties that are clearly not great-making properties. If you run across a property that different people could have an opinion on what is greater, then all you have identified a property that is not a great-making one.
No, this is not the problem. The problem is your inability to distinguish between properties that are highly desirable and those that are objectively desirable. There's the problem right there, "objectively desirable." There is no such thing as objectively desirable because desires are all subjective facts. You keep asserting that certain things are objectively better without ever bothering to explain in what sense they are 'better'. Better from the point of view of a subject will not get you there. It has to be better in terms of objective properties (of the properties).
The word 'desirable' related back to 'better'. All-powerful being greater than limited power has nothing to do with better or desirable. It is just more power.
Quote:(March 13, 2017 at 11:32 am)SteveII Wrote: But the hurdle seems to be even less than that. Are the traditionally stipulated great-making properties of God coherent? If they are coherent, they are possible and as the rest of the argument explains, if they are possible, they exist.
The question is not whether they are coherent but rather whether better and worse have objective definitions. If not then it is incoherent to say that x or y property is objectively great, and the rest of the argument collapses.
Greater or less than.
I would like to hear your thoughts. thanks again.