RE: Why are atheist...atheist?
July 13, 2011 at 8:22 am
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2011 at 9:20 am by The Grand Nudger.)
There's a simple way to make this point to you. The atheist, strong or weak, makes fewer unproven assumptions to reach his conclusion. The atheist does not let "god" stand in for "i don't know". Even at the very foundation of the argument, when all attributes of god are removed from the discussion, the strong atheist does not refer to what is left as god. The strong atheist does not assume that a god is necessary, or that any old thing that the deist can conjure up is by definition god. The strong atheist does not rely on philosophical arguments for or against god, nor logical arguments, but evidence. A position which arises from evidence, or lack of evidence, can hardly be said to be a position of ignorance.
The strong atheist has constructed a model which fits with our observations (that gods are not present in the universe),
makes predictions (that you wont find any gods)
and can be falsified (by finding god/s).
The proposition of an unknowable god is by definition an argument from ignorance. It may be the supreme argument from ignorance, in that it's premise is the assumption that some things are simply unknowable, and that what we do not know or cannot know is then god. It's a circular argument in which the conclusion is identical to the premise. Even your god is not an unknowable god, in that it is a creator god. If a god were a creator god we would have knowledge of that god through the very obvious effects of it's creative act. Your own belief in a creator god does not equal an unknowable god.
Does this make your position ignorant?
In any case, if you want to use the unknowable god as your premise, you're going to have to give evidence to support it. That is where your conclusion is flawed, your premise is an unsupported assumption, and as such any conclusions you reach based on this premise will be lacking in worth or value compared to any conclusions based on a premise which does have evidence to support it.
In the event that the position of no gods is determined to be supported by fallacious reasoning, it would simply leave the position in a state whereby it can only be argued for by belief, by faith. This would make it equal to the position of an unknowable god, not lesser, or ignorant, but standing on exactly the same footing. We would still of course be left with the observation that gods are not present in the universe, that magic is not a cause for any observed effect.
Clear that up for you?
Again, for the record, I am a "strong atheist", so your questions ARE directed at me, I've repeated myself here so that you cannot simply hand wave me away by stating that I'm no "true strong atheist". One does not have to be a "true stong atheist" to raise objections to your premise, but since you have repeatedly asserted that only a "true strong atheist" may reply to your argument.........I throw my name into the hat.
Here is a link for you, this might help you to understand the many objections that have been raised to your op, and subsequent posts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
The argument you have made as to gods existence is a form of the cosmological argument. That god can be argued to exist based on some property of the cosmos that demands his existence. A proof by logic.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam
Specifically it is the fine-tuning argument.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...g_argument
It also touches on the argument from design.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...rom_design
As well as the first cause.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...irst_cause
Is there anything in this post that you feel needs further clarification?
The strong atheist has constructed a model which fits with our observations (that gods are not present in the universe),
makes predictions (that you wont find any gods)
and can be falsified (by finding god/s).
The proposition of an unknowable god is by definition an argument from ignorance. It may be the supreme argument from ignorance, in that it's premise is the assumption that some things are simply unknowable, and that what we do not know or cannot know is then god. It's a circular argument in which the conclusion is identical to the premise. Even your god is not an unknowable god, in that it is a creator god. If a god were a creator god we would have knowledge of that god through the very obvious effects of it's creative act. Your own belief in a creator god does not equal an unknowable god.
Does this make your position ignorant?
In any case, if you want to use the unknowable god as your premise, you're going to have to give evidence to support it. That is where your conclusion is flawed, your premise is an unsupported assumption, and as such any conclusions you reach based on this premise will be lacking in worth or value compared to any conclusions based on a premise which does have evidence to support it.
In the event that the position of no gods is determined to be supported by fallacious reasoning, it would simply leave the position in a state whereby it can only be argued for by belief, by faith. This would make it equal to the position of an unknowable god, not lesser, or ignorant, but standing on exactly the same footing. We would still of course be left with the observation that gods are not present in the universe, that magic is not a cause for any observed effect.
Clear that up for you?
Again, for the record, I am a "strong atheist", so your questions ARE directed at me, I've repeated myself here so that you cannot simply hand wave me away by stating that I'm no "true strong atheist". One does not have to be a "true stong atheist" to raise objections to your premise, but since you have repeatedly asserted that only a "true strong atheist" may reply to your argument.........I throw my name into the hat.
Here is a link for you, this might help you to understand the many objections that have been raised to your op, and subsequent posts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
The argument you have made as to gods existence is a form of the cosmological argument. That god can be argued to exist based on some property of the cosmos that demands his existence. A proof by logic.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam
Specifically it is the fine-tuning argument.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...g_argument
It also touches on the argument from design.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...rom_design
As well as the first cause.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...irst_cause
Is there anything in this post that you feel needs further clarification?
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