(July 12, 2017 at 12:52 pm)SteveII Wrote:(July 12, 2017 at 12:10 pm)mordant Wrote: Then why is this suddenly not a problem in heaven? Why, in heaven, will you not be "happy puppets following a predefined path"?
Not at all. People could still choose to do good, where there'd be no intervention needed.
You don't seem to believe that your god is truly all powerful, all knowing, and all good. Because if he's all those things he could have done, or could do, any of the following:
1) Construct humans that are capable of following his ruleset
2) Construct a ruleset that humans are capable of following
3) Have at least a puny human standard of rule enforcement that focuses on rehabilitation and reconciliation and restoration to a productive member of the kingdom of god, rather than on punishment, up to and including infinite punishment for finite transgressions.
4) Insure that, as is supposedly his desire, none should perish, but all should come to repentance. In other words, universal reconciliation.
All of this and more is possible for a tri-omni god, without breaking the slightest sweat. All of this and more can be done while still satisfying the requirements of his righteousness, since god can make any arbitrary set of laws and definitions he wants. Indeed, it could all be done without violating your sacred and indispensable free will that somehow no longer matters to you in heaven.
Of course, the notion that god will be sullied by contact with this thing-in-itself called "sin" is a separate debate, I'm just allowing it here for the sake of argument.
On what basis do you say we lose free will in heaven?
Omnipotence does not mean can do anything. It means can do anything logically possible to do.
1. You would have to show that a world is actually possible (not just logically possible) where everyone has free will yet never chooses wrong. It is no longer a matter of logically possible, because you have now made it contingent upon a variable that God, by definition, does not control.
2. The "ruleset" is not arbitrary or could have been some other way. It is based in the nature of God (which has always been the same). Part of that nature is also holiness and justice kicks in when confronted with a moral failure. These attributes must be satisfied in order for the relationship to be repaired.
3. Failure to repair that relationship mean separation from God. The whole plan of redemption is all about rehabilitation and reconciliation.
4. God provided a FREE method of repair, but cannot force us to take it (free will and all).
This has gotten a bit long and complicated, so I'd like to ask for some clarification. SteveII, are you saying that god is an objective moral standard? If so, do you mean that everything he does is good and everything he doesn't do is not good? Or is it everything he says to do is good and everything he says not to do is bad. Basically, how do we know what is good and what is bad in your opinion? I'd like to join in the discussion but I'm getting a little lost in the long posts lol!
