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Four proofs of the nonexistence of God
#59
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God
(July 19, 2017 at 4:48 pm)SteveII Wrote:
(July 19, 2017 at 4:11 pm)Jehanne Wrote: #1:  The virtual particle-antiparticle pairs are not caused by anything; they are uncaused.  If so, what do you think it is that causes them, and what causes that to cause them, and so forth.  Again, I am not talking about some quantum event that created our Universe.  What causes these particles to appear?  Please be specific.

#2:  I think that the Universe is eternal, along with the multiverse; eternal models of cosmology exist that describe this, but such is probably beyond empirical Science, hence, physics.  One can simply say that there was no "before" before the beginning.  The Hartle-Hawking model describes such a Universe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartle%E2%...king_state

Dr. Craig is simply not qualified to critique this model; he simply does not understand the math.  He can say that it is "metaphysically absurd" but so is quantum tunneling and we have a real-life example of that in the form of an electron microscope, and you might as well say that "evil spirits" are the source of the exquisite images.

#3:  People used to say the same thing about an Earth that moved.  It was absurd.  Even if what you are saying is true (and, it isn't), it just shows that half of the US population is ignorant, but if you follow the surveys closely, only about 10% of Bible-thumpers out there are "absolutely sure" that "God did it".  Again, a quantum oscillator is absurd, but it is well defined and agrees precisely with experiment and observational physics.

#4:  If the Universe is infinite (and, theory and observation strongly suggest that space-time is flat, hence, infinite), then actual infinities exist in the physical World.  QED.

1. No, virtual particle fluctuations are weakly caused by the energy shifts in a quantum vacuum. The fluctuations are not deterministric, but that does not mean wholly uncaused. There is no warrant to extrapolate this oddity to universe generating cause/effects. 
2. Again, how can there be an infinite number of physical causes/effects when an infinite number of physical objects/changes is not possible? Do you not understand that we would never have gotten to today in an infinite causal chain of events? Your only defense (I'm being generous) seems to be abstract objects that a naturalistic worldview can't account for.
3. Is there a point in there?
4. Your conclusion follows from your premise. See #2 for a defeater to your premise.

#1:  What does "weakly caused" mean?  What causes the energy shifts in a quantum vacuum?  And, what is the cause of the causes of the energy shifts?  And, so forth?  We are not talking about determinism here versus indeterminism but causality.  You have still not answered my question.

#2:  If the Universe is infinite in spatial extent, how could there not be an "actual infinite" of physical things, especially, given what you have said in #1.  If you reject the FLRW metric, then, please, stop quoting the BGV Theorem!!  And, please, stop talking about physics!  No physicist (even the believers) agrees with you (or Craig)!

#3:  The existence of actual infinities is accepted within the physics and astronomy community.  Read The Physical Universe by Professor Frank Shu (published in 1981, but still in print).  Professor Shu discusses actual infinities all throughout his textbook, which is seminal within the astrophysical community (which is why it is still in print).

#4:  You reject the existence of actual infinities; scientists don't.  As Professor Morriston has pointed out, the existence of actual infinities is hardly a logical impossibility, because God, if he/she/it exists, could create those:

http://spot.colorado.edu/~morristo/NewKalamCritique.pdf

Please read the above; it will hep you!

Best,

Dawn

(July 19, 2017 at 4:56 pm)Lek Wrote:
(July 19, 2017 at 12:57 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Ah, I take it that you're a JW then. We'll be completely unconscious of any time spent as a bodiless soul, then? And what about the people who DO go to heaven?

Like I mentioned in my previous post, God can allow us to keep our memories if he wants to.  And I'm definitely not a JW.  Paul wrote "absent from the body, present with Lord."  That indicates we will go to heaven awaiting the final judgement and our placement in new bodies and on the new earth.  My take on it is that there is no time in heaven; so everything is perceived as the present.  Because of this, we (the saved) will all wake up at the same time for the final judgement and our residence on the new earth.  Since the bible doesn't speak to this issue in detail, we can only speculate.

(July 19, 2017 at 4:46 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Oh, and so, God causes Alzheimer's?  But, only those Alzheimer's Elect get to remember?

I don't know whether non-elect will know or not.  Is this a make or break issue with you?  As a side note:  I am not a calvinist.  When I speak of the elect, I am referring to those who are in Christ; that is his followers.

Memories are stored in our brains and not in our "souls", which do not exist.  No evidence exists for souls just as no evidence exists for fairies; if you don't believe in the latter, why bother with the former?  You should watch the following video:

https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_insel_t...al_illness

Treatment of mental illness and disorders has advanced through the science of the brain and not through the study of the "soul".
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Interaktive - July 17, 2017 at 5:51 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Joods - July 17, 2017 at 8:11 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by brewer - July 17, 2017 at 8:12 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by brewer - July 17, 2017 at 10:22 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Joods - July 17, 2017 at 11:36 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by brewer - July 17, 2017 at 12:11 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Joods - July 17, 2017 at 12:18 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Brian37 - July 18, 2017 at 10:39 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by brewer - May 6, 2018 at 11:13 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Joods - July 17, 2017 at 8:19 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 17, 2017 at 12:02 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 17, 2017 at 1:06 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 17, 2017 at 3:02 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 17, 2017 at 5:08 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 17, 2017 at 5:34 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 18, 2017 at 9:37 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 18, 2017 at 12:12 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 18, 2017 at 12:30 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 18, 2017 at 3:54 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 18, 2017 at 9:43 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 18, 2017 at 4:38 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 19, 2017 at 8:21 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 19, 2017 at 12:36 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 19, 2017 at 4:41 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 19, 2017 at 4:46 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 20, 2017 at 12:25 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 18, 2017 at 10:58 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by brewer - July 18, 2017 at 11:01 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 18, 2017 at 9:49 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 18, 2017 at 11:39 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 18, 2017 at 12:11 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by vorlon13 - July 18, 2017 at 12:23 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 19, 2017 at 12:04 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 19, 2017 at 4:56 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 19, 2017 at 5:03 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 20, 2017 at 2:35 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 19, 2017 at 1:18 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 19, 2017 at 2:17 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 19, 2017 at 3:22 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 19, 2017 at 4:11 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 19, 2017 at 4:48 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 19, 2017 at 6:04 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 19, 2017 at 6:23 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 19, 2017 at 6:24 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Silver - July 19, 2017 at 6:27 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 19, 2017 at 6:58 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Silver - July 19, 2017 at 6:59 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 19, 2017 at 9:17 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 19, 2017 at 7:08 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 19, 2017 at 7:30 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Silver - July 19, 2017 at 7:33 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 19, 2017 at 9:40 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 19, 2017 at 10:38 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 20, 2017 at 7:08 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 20, 2017 at 11:24 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 20, 2017 at 3:09 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 20, 2017 at 4:57 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 6:14 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 20, 2017 at 7:18 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 21, 2017 at 1:12 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 21, 2017 at 2:23 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 22, 2017 at 7:22 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 24, 2017 at 4:46 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 25, 2017 at 12:31 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Lek - July 20, 2017 at 12:43 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 1:45 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 2:43 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 8:24 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 20, 2017 at 9:10 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 20, 2017 at 10:44 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 20, 2017 at 10:59 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 20, 2017 at 9:33 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 12:31 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 20, 2017 at 6:15 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 8:52 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 10:06 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 22, 2017 at 6:51 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 12:55 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 2:54 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 20, 2017 at 3:33 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Grandizer - April 26, 2018 at 10:33 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by SteveII - July 19, 2017 at 9:35 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 19, 2017 at 10:32 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 22, 2017 at 9:10 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 23, 2017 at 7:02 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 23, 2017 at 6:38 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Brian37 - July 23, 2017 at 8:59 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Amarok - July 23, 2017 at 6:57 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 24, 2017 at 7:32 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Amarok - July 24, 2017 at 12:29 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 24, 2017 at 6:04 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Amarok - July 24, 2017 at 6:18 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Jehanne - July 25, 2017 at 6:00 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Joods - July 25, 2017 at 1:40 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Amarok - July 25, 2017 at 9:57 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by KevinM1 - July 26, 2017 at 8:47 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by mordant - July 26, 2017 at 9:43 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Minimalist - April 24, 2018 at 11:52 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by G Alan - April 26, 2018 at 8:44 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Joods - April 26, 2018 at 8:47 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by G Alan - April 26, 2018 at 9:21 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by KevinM1 - April 26, 2018 at 10:51 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by G Alan - April 26, 2018 at 11:23 am
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by Grandizer - April 26, 2018 at 10:23 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by G Alan - April 26, 2018 at 2:26 pm
RE: Four proofs of the nonexistence of God - by KevinM1 - April 26, 2018 at 2:49 pm

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