Do Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence?

[Amarok]

Prong 1 - "Implausible claims require greater evidence to be believed than do more probable events".

Substituting "implausible" for the typical "extraordinary" is poisoning the well and question begging.

It's called defining a term, Steve.  You asked what the operant definition of extraordinary was, and when I supply an answer, you cry foul.  Heads you win, tails I lose, eh?  This is nothing but disingenious game playing.   So you can take your baseless claims of fallcy this and fallacy that and shove them where the sun don't shine.  You don't like my definition of extraordinary?  Then provide some  criticism of it, instead of bleating like a wounded sheep.

No one has told me yet why "Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence" (instead preferring a long discussion on the evidence). It sounds intuitive, but in fact is demonstrably false.

Seeing that you haven't provided any such demonstration, this is a bit premature.  Never argue a point that you can claim by bare assertion, huh?

Let's go with an example from Luke 5:17-39:

17 On one of the days while Jesus was teaching, some proud religious law-keepers and teachers of the Law were sitting by Him. They had come from every town in the countries of Galilee and Judea and from Jerusalem. The power of the Lord was there to heal them. 18 Some men took a man who was not able to move his body to Jesus. He was carried on a bed. They looked for a way to take the man into the house where Jesus was. 19 But they could not find a way to take him in because of so many people. They made a hole in the roof over where Jesus stood. Then they let the bed with the sick man on it down before Jesus. 20 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the man, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

21 The teachers of the Law and the proud religious law-keepers thought to themselves, “Who is this Man Who speaks as if He is God? Who can forgive sins but God only?” 22 Jesus knew what they were thinking. He said to them, “Why do you think this way in your hearts? 23 Which is easier to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or, ‘Get up and walk’?

24 “So that you may know the Son of Man has the right and the power on earth to forgive sins,” He said to the man who could not move his body, “I say to you, get up. Take your bed and go to your home.” 25 At once the sick man got up in front of them. He took his bed and went to his home thanking God. 26 All those who were there were surprised and gave thanks to God, saying, “We have seen very special things today.”

The healing of the paralyzed man was extraordinary. However there was only one piece of evidence:the man walked away.

Helping yourself to some freebie facts I see.  The question puts the whole story in doubt.  You don't get to assume facts drawn from a story when the whole story's trustworthiness is contested.  That's stealing from a bank that is empty.

 Is this what you mean by "greater evidence" (extraordinary)? If so, how so? I contend that any event only needs ordinary evidence (not greater in quantity or quality) because a simple probability equation can be made: is the probability of the event having a supernatural cause more than offset by the probability of seeing the effect had the event NOT had a supernatural cause. In other words, how probable was the man walking away had a miracle not occured? I contend that it is way lower. So, therefore the evidence of the man walking away is sufficient to reasonably believe in the supernatural cause--for someone present.

Except that you don't have any such evidence because the truth of the whole story is what's at issue.  You don't get to just assume facts not in evidence because your bias leads you there.  Is the story as a whole well evidenced?  Well, what's your evidence for the story.  Solely that someone long ago wrote down the story.  That's hardly evidence to speak of.  People wrote all sorts of such stories in that day and age, and you don't believe those tales anymore than I believe yours. And for what it matters, you can dispense with all the miracles of healing and walking on water and such rot.  There are plenty of other stories of people performing similar feats which you don't believe, so arguing the truth of those miracles simply degrades into a grand exercise in special pleading.  No, as is remarked, the truth of Christianity stands or falls on the truth of the resurrection miracle.  And that certainly qualifies as an implausible or extraordinary event.  And what's your evidence for that?  That someone in ancient times wrote a story about it.  The stories told about it aren't even consistent.  That's such poor evidence that it's laughable.

Let's reason a step further. Say someone was there and wrote about it. Well, we have the same circumstances, evidence and assessment, so really there is no justification to reexamine the event itself. Instead we turn to the eyewitness's dependablity on relating the event. Is there anything that can be extraordinary about a single witness's dependability? I don't think so. We can increase the confidence we have in this eyewitness by seeing if there are other eyewitness accounts.

You have a problem Steve, it's called lack of evidence.  Arguing that a bunch of credulous stories from a time when such stories were accepted and passed around uncritically constitutes good evidence for a highly improbable event is just being foolish (or so incredibly biased that you can't see reason).

We can further increase the confidence by the existence of other similar (not the same) supernatural events--a pattern--related by several eyewitnesses.  The number of these accounts needed to meet some standard of 'dependable' will be very different between individuals and groups depending on the bias or preconceived beliefs about the supernatural. For instance, most of the world does not have a big problem believing in the supernatural, so their dependability threshold will be different than an atheist. If the threshold is subjective, then 'extraordinary' loses any meaning at all. 

Again, you're dipping from a well that is empty.  Using one unsupported story to back up another unsupported story is simply illegitimate.  You're right about one thing though.  The whole argument is about persuasion.  If you can't convince a neutral person on the strength of your so-called evidence, all you've got is a bunch of empty words.  And here we see you mounting an ad populum argument for the plausibility of the supernatural.  The problem is that the supernatural comes in distinct varieties.  The Hindu supernaturalist won't accept the Christian supernatural, and the Jewish supernaturalist won't accept the Buddhist's supernatural and so on.  You're trying to amalgamate a class which can't be amalgamated.  The only claims to neutrality which can be agreed to by mostly all parties are the findings of science.  And it's that standard of evidence which you're comparing the reliability of your campfire tales to in this argument.  So, no, the standard isn't subjective, just not well delineated.

It seems you might be going the route that any eyewitness testimony written in the first century is insufficient. If so, then in effect you are denying that any evidence is possible--because really, what other evidence could there be? Tell my why that isn't question begging. 

There are reasons which justify doubting stories of miracles from this time, or indeed from any time.  It isn't question begging if you don't just assume your conclusion but provide rational justification for your stance.  But once again we find you bleating like a sheep instead of providing actual argument.  No I don't find second-hand stories of the miraculous to be particularly credible.  What is considered evidence for the historical sciences is not on a par with that from the physical sciences, and while you may whine about this inequity, that is simply a fact.  That you have inferior evidence for your chosen beliefs is not my problem.  Not to mention it bespeaks of a double standard with you that you accept Christian miracle stories, but not the miracle stories of other religion which are just as well evidenced by second hand stories as your Christian tales.

I did not attack Bayesian probability. You can see my post from page 2 with the equation here. Tell me why that is not way more appropriate to the discussion than your example.

It's appropriate to the discussion, it's just falsely described.  You don't have facts that are more probable if the claim is true than if it is false.  You have stories, and the evidence from the history of mankind is that people make up such stories.  So, no, the weight of the improbability of evidence (which you don't have) that is based on second hand stories does not outweigh the improbability of the event.  By the way, I consider falsely describing the application of Bayesian inference to be perilously close to an attack on it.  At the very least it is a terrible misrepresentation.  And yes you have mounted an attack upon the basic Bayesian reasoning behind the dismissal of your miracle stories with an assertion that the question of whether a specific miracle occurred is subjective.  Mister Agenda raised the objection that ECREE is well accounted for by Bayesian inference early on in the discussion, and you've spent your time since then tap dancing around it, mouthing bare assertions that its falseness has been "demonstrated", and crying foul whenever anyone attempts to answer your questions. Yes, standards of evidence vary, but in no standard are arbitrary miracles a probable event.  That's just intentionally trading on the vagueness of standards of evidence to effectively claim they don't exist.  And that's an example of the fallacy of the beard.  You want to conflate 'poorly defined' with 'not defined at all'.  If you have a problem with science being the gold standard for what is and is not probable, why don't you articulate your objection, instead of bleating "fallacy! fallacy!" at every turn.

Well of course he will do all the above he has no choice. The curtain cannot be pulled back or Oz will no longer be great and powerful. The worst bit is he thinks extraordinary is a popularity contest.