Pat gets mad

[Napoléon]

I do have a slight contention against your use of the word "Jihad." I just haven't replied yet but that doesn't mean that I agree with you.

No problem Rayaan, I was just suggesting to padraic that if HE isn't going to contend what I'm saying then he should shut the fuck up

In Arabic, jihad means a "striving" or a "struggle" which applies to any effort exerted by anyone. For example, a student trying to pass a course in college is a jihad. Trying to quit smoking is a jihad. Trying to quit a bad habit is a jihad. Fighting against an oppressive ruler is a jihad. Trying to lose 20 pounds through diet and exercise is a jihad. So, it's anything which require an effort over a course of time. And the list goes on.

The point is that Jihad doesn't mean "holy war," but a "struggle" toward a moral, intellectual, and a spiritual improvement. The word does include a struggle in the military sense, but it has a wider connotation and embraces every kind of striving, and Jihad doesn't have to be a violent one. There are also non-violent forms of Jihad which can be done with pen, tongue, hands, the media, internet, and in many other ways which are not necessarily harmful to society.

I was never under any illusion that jihad meant anything other than what you said. Please demonstrate where I said otherwise. I'm not sure why you think I meant that jihad means exclusively holy war.

The Arabic word for "war" is "harb" or "qital." This is the violent form of Jihad, as mentioned in certain passages of the Quran, which is only allowed for the purpose of self-defense such as to protect our family and property from an invasion. It is not allowed against ordinary people who are living peacefully (whether they are atheists or not), as the Quran says, "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, Allah does not allow you to harm them." (Surah 4:90). Therefore, fighting is permitted only when others are waging a war against us. We are not allowed to kill or fight anyone just to "convert" them to Islam because that is not the meaning of Jihad nor in agreement with the Quranic verses.

Now, here's a more clear and logical analysis of the issue: What Does Islam Say About "Forcing People in Religion?"

Really?
Here's a couple of verses which go against that.
-Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

This would basically be saying that if you don't submit then you must be fought. Seems like conversion tactics to me. What is your interpretation?

-Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

Fight anyone who doesn't do what we want them to do. Hmmm, more of the same? Your thoughts?

-Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion"

Oh, so if they do decide to 'convert' then they are fine? Well isn't that just wonderful. Silly old me for thinking Islam was a spiteful and hateful religion.


You contend my use of the word jihad but haven't said why it was wrong. You gave me a definition for jihad, but I don't see how my original comment differs from what you have said. You said yourself that jihad has certain military connotations, and that it CAN be used in the context of 'fighting'.

The quotes above say to fight those who do not submit. A fight in your own words can be called a jihad. So how was my original statement incorrect?

You may have other verses which say something different but then that highlights the clear contradictions in your own holy book, and how interpretations can differ.