(January 17, 2018 at 9:15 pm)curiosne Wrote:(December 17, 2017 at 12:13 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: Sorry for the delay, this isn't quite as good as I would like, but it is a quick bulleted point list for you.
1) Occurs within history – The Gospels where not written in a far, far, away land, in a time long ago. (Well at least not for their immediate audience.) There where written in a particular time and place. With the effects of it seen emanating from this time.
2) Was intended, and received as historical.
3) Attested as true by multiple witnesses. We of course have the Four Gospels written by those who were present, and those close to them. We also have indirect evidence from the early Churches and their writings who also testified to the same, and that they were founded and received this information from Jesus’s disciples
4) Many who changed their lives drastically, to both follow Jesus, and to tell the Gospel as seen in the above.
5) Further indications of truthfulness. Criteria of embarrassment, falsifiable claims (especially for those of the time), pressure to lie, and external corroboration.
In the end, I find that the conclusion that it is true, matches the facts better than other conspiracy theories or accusations of legend, which those that I have heard, have very little foundation.
1) Agreed on this. The evidence for existence of the gospels is not in doubt.
2) Agreed on this.
3) Can you provide more details on the witnesses? I don't think anyone though knows who wrote the Gospels and the names given to the writers were assigned arbitrarily.
4) So are you saying that because the gospels have benefited people then it must be true?
5) I don't understand this. Please explain.
3.) Since we are talking about epistemology, I would highly recommend you ask anyone who is telling you that the Gospel authors where assigned arbitrarily "how do you know that?" We have a number of manuscripts and copies of Gospels. It is my understanding, that each place, where we have the top of the scroll or there is a heading on a page, the gospels are attributed to their traditional author. There is no dispute about the authors, as well it seems there would be little reason to ascribe them to those of lesser authority (Mark, Luke) if they are just choosing someone.
4.) I'm afraid, that this is not the lines of which I was thinking. I was speaking more to those had met Jesus and drastically changed their life because of it. While it doesn't mean that it is necessarily true, I think that it does speak towards the truth, if someone acts like it is true (especially in the face of adversity). Paul had a fairly high position, which he gave up, to join those he was previously persecuting. John the brother of Jesus is reported to be skeptical early in Jesus ministry. Many dropped what they where doing to follow Jesus.
5.) This also connects to the last. Many of the claims of the new testament where done in public, they where falsifiable to those who they where preaching to. Persecution a conspiracy theory or a lie, is more likely to fall apart, when there is pressure against it. There is some questions about some of the tradition of martyrdom, but it is difficult to say that the early church wasn't persecuted. Criteria of embarrassment is an indicator of truthfulness, in that it paints the teller in a poor light (which most people are unlikely to do if given a choice).
AS well we have witness to the following outside of Biblical and Early Church writers which comes from early and often hostile writers. From these external sources you can verify quite a bit about the story of Jesus. -Cold Case Christianity
Quote:Jesus was born and lived in Palestine. He was born, supposedly, to a virgin and had an earthly father who was a carpenter. He was a teacher who taught that through repentance and belief, all followers would become brothers and sisters. He led the Jews away from their beliefs. He was a wise man who claimed to be God and the Messiah. He had unusual magical powers and performed miraculous deeds. He healed the lame. He accurately predicted the future. He was persecuted by the Jews for what He said, betrayed by Judah Iskarioto. He was beaten with rods, forced to drink vinegar and wear a crown of thorns. He was crucified on the eve of the Passover and this crucifixion occurred under the direction of Pontius Pilate, during the time of Tiberius. On the day of His crucifixion, the sky grew dark and there was an earthquake. Afterward, He was buried in a tomb and the tomb was later found to be empty. He appeared to His disciples resurrected from the grave and showed them His wounds. These disciples then told others Jesus was resurrected and ascended into heaven. Jesus’ disciples and followers upheld a high moral code. One of them was named Matthai. The disciples were also persecuted for their faith but were martyred without changing their claims. They met regularly to worship Jesus, even after His death.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther