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Josh McDowell
#3
RE: Josh McDowell
(August 29, 2011 at 11:00 am)salty Wrote: "The rejection of Christ is often not so much of the mind but of the will, not so much "I can't" but "I won't." - Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity

What's your gut reaction to this?
I'll be back to check, I'm going to watch my show. Smile

By rejection of Christ, I assume you mean his offer of salvation by his redemptive sacrifice on the cross?

Going with that assumption, I'll break it down for you.

My problem is not that I'm too proud to admit being a "sinner", if by that you mean I've made mistakes in this life. My problem is not that I'm unwilling to "repent and turn from sin", if by that you mean honestly assess my mistakes, learn from them and seek to set things right.

My problem is in thinking that there's any redemptive value in blood sacrifices, be they animal, human or divine.

First, I fail to understand the mechanics involved. How does blood sacrifice make anything better? How does it make God any more inclined to forgive? And if Jesus is God, then we have God sacrificing himself as a means to convince himself to forgive us, which only compounds the absurdity.

Second, moral justice demands that the criminal alone must be punished for his transgressions. No one can take the place of someone else's sins, even if that person were willing.

Third, it is morally wrong to accept an offer to take my place for the things I have done wrong. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that a friend of a murderer turns himself in for the crime, in order to save his criminal friend. If the murderer fails to stop his friend from being executed in his place, knowingly allowing an innocent to be killed, he has yet more blood on his hands.

To review, here's the sales pitch of Christianity:

1. Admit you're a sinner.
2. Be willing to repent.
3. Believe that God sent himself down to earth to bleed on a cross as the means of convincing himself to forgive you.

You had me. You had me. You lost me.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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Messages In This Thread
Josh McDowell - by salty - August 29, 2011 at 11:00 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by Cinjin - August 29, 2011 at 11:16 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by DeistPaladin - August 29, 2011 at 11:24 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 29, 2011 at 2:01 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Thor - August 29, 2011 at 2:09 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 29, 2011 at 2:14 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by frankiej - August 29, 2011 at 2:16 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Thor - August 29, 2011 at 3:00 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 29, 2011 at 3:07 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by frankiej - August 29, 2011 at 4:08 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Thor - August 29, 2011 at 4:42 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Simon Moon - August 29, 2011 at 5:30 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Thor - August 29, 2011 at 5:32 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 29, 2011 at 6:18 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Jaysyn - August 30, 2011 at 8:24 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by Minimalist - August 29, 2011 at 11:29 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 12:15 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by frankiej - August 29, 2011 at 2:03 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 2:05 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 2:16 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 2:25 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by thesummerqueen - August 29, 2011 at 2:48 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 2:49 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 29, 2011 at 2:54 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Cinjin - August 29, 2011 at 3:23 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Thor - August 29, 2011 at 4:02 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Faith No More - August 29, 2011 at 4:38 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 2:55 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 29, 2011 at 3:00 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 3:08 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Welsh cake - August 29, 2011 at 3:33 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 29, 2011 at 6:45 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Thor - August 30, 2011 at 10:43 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by Minimalist - August 29, 2011 at 4:12 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 4:14 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Simon Moon - August 29, 2011 at 4:19 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 29, 2011 at 7:44 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Minimalist - August 29, 2011 at 7:54 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Simon Moon - August 29, 2011 at 8:10 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 5:55 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by Thor - August 30, 2011 at 11:27 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by searchingforanswers - August 29, 2011 at 4:21 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 29, 2011 at 7:04 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by searchingforanswers - August 29, 2011 at 7:58 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Thor - August 30, 2011 at 11:00 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 4:23 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 4:41 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 5:17 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Thor - August 29, 2011 at 5:28 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 5:29 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 5:32 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 6:47 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 7:08 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 29, 2011 at 7:09 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Minimalist - August 29, 2011 at 7:18 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 7:24 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 29, 2011 at 7:59 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 10:57 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by Javaman - August 30, 2011 at 6:24 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by KichigaiNeko - August 30, 2011 at 6:25 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 10:50 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 10:54 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 10:57 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 11:15 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 11:21 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 12:09 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 12:27 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by KichigaiNeko - August 30, 2011 at 11:23 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 10:55 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 11:04 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 11:24 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 11:22 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by Minimalist - August 30, 2011 at 11:26 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 12:30 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 12:37 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by KichigaiNeko - August 30, 2011 at 11:30 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 11:32 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by frankiej - August 30, 2011 at 12:12 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 12:45 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by frankiej - August 30, 2011 at 12:48 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 12:53 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 12:53 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 1:05 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 1:32 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 2:38 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 3:00 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by fr0d0 - August 31, 2011 at 3:03 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 31, 2011 at 3:17 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by thesummerqueen - August 30, 2011 at 1:49 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 3:01 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 12:40 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 12:52 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 12:51 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 12:55 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 12:53 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 1:05 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 1:08 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by downbeatplumb - August 30, 2011 at 1:09 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 2:57 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Rev. Rye - August 30, 2011 at 1:26 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 1:43 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Minimalist - August 30, 2011 at 1:57 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by salty - August 30, 2011 at 3:37 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 4:17 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Faith No More - August 30, 2011 at 2:54 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by bozo - August 30, 2011 at 3:09 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by downbeatplumb - August 30, 2011 at 3:37 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by thesummerqueen - August 30, 2011 at 4:17 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 4:24 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 30, 2011 at 4:25 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by thesummerqueen - August 30, 2011 at 4:30 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Minimalist - August 30, 2011 at 4:57 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Ace Otana - August 30, 2011 at 5:00 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by Cinjin - August 30, 2011 at 6:19 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by CoxRox - August 31, 2011 at 4:52 am
RE: Josh McDowell - by The Grand Nudger - August 31, 2011 at 3:05 pm
RE: Josh McDowell - by fr0d0 - August 31, 2011 at 3:47 pm

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