"The rejection of Christ is often not so much of the mind but of the will, not so much "I can't" but "I won't." - Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity

What's your gut reaction to this?

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I'll be back to check, I'm going to watch my show.

(August 29, 2011 at 11:00 am)salty Wrote: "The rejection of Christ is often not so much of the mind but of the will, not so much "I can't" but "I won't." - Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity

What's your gut reaction to this?

Being that your god makes the claim that the choice to serve him is one of free will - what difference does it make?

I can't honor a god who clearly doesn't have any honor.

(August 29, 2011 at 11:00 am)salty Wrote: "The rejection of Christ is often not so much of the mind but of the will, not so much "I can't" but "I won't." - Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity

What's your gut reaction to this?

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I'll be back to check, I'm going to watch my show.

By rejection of Christ, I assume you mean his offer of salvation by his redemptive sacrifice on the cross?

Going with that assumption, I'll break it down for you.

My problem is not that I'm too proud to admit being a "sinner", if by that you mean I've made mistakes in this life. My problem is not that I'm unwilling to "repent and turn from sin", if by that you mean honestly assess my mistakes, learn from them and seek to set things right.

My problem is in thinking that there's any redemptive value in blood sacrifices, be they animal, human or divine.

First, I fail to understand the mechanics involved. How does blood sacrifice make anything better? How does it make God any more inclined to forgive? And if Jesus is God, then we have God sacrificing himself as a means to convince himself to forgive us, which only compounds the absurdity.

Second, moral justice demands that the criminal alone must be punished for his transgressions. No one can take the place of someone else's sins, even if that person were willing.

Third, it is morally wrong to accept an offer to take my place for the things I have done wrong. Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that a friend of a murderer turns himself in for the crime, in order to save his criminal friend. If the murderer fails to stop his friend from being executed in his place, knowingly allowing an innocent to be killed, he has yet more blood on his hands.

To review, here's the sales pitch of Christianity:

1. Admit you're a sinner.
2. Be willing to repent.
3. Believe that God sent himself down to earth to bleed on a cross as the means of convincing himself to forgive you.

You had me. You had me. You lost me.

The same as my reaction to anything McDowell says.

He's a fucking con man making a living off of gullible fools.

I can't believe due to the lack of evidence for god, and the amount of evidence against biblical claims. If I am shown to be wrong I won't bow before the god of the bible.

Thank you for such an honest response. I hope that I can meet the challenge. There were 2 questions and 4 statements. I will respond to all 6.

1. How does blood (whether animal or human) make it better?

I could ask the judicial system the same question, how does community service make up for major theft? How does someone sitting in a jail cell for the rest of their lives replace the person or people that were murdered? In a moral society we create judicial consequences that we feel fit the crime, in some cases we give capital punishment, a life for a life (or lives).

God is the ultimate judge and his justice requires that something innocent and pure be sacrificed to atone for the sins humans commit (which echoes the coming of Christ). God is holy and pure, therefore he cannot accept a tainted offering, a sinful human, a pig, a bird, etc. Before the arrival of Jesus Christ, specific animals had to be used to atone for our transgressions because there is nothing we can make or physically do to appease the Lord. He clearly defines what is acceptable and what isn't, just like the courts give acceptable ways to make up for law breaking.

2. How does it [sacrificing] make God more inclined to forgive?

By sacrificing and burning an offering to the Lord people were asking God to see them in the light of the sacrifice, as pure and innocent, meaning they acknowledged their deeds were evil and were asking to be given their innocence back. If the people sent a tainted sacrifice they are asking to be doubly cursed and mocked a holy God!

3. God is essentially sacrificing himself, as a means to convince himself to forgive us.

In order for humans to be redeemed we would need a pure and innocent sacrifice. No sinful human could resist sin in thought, in word and in deed, to become the sacrifice that would atone for the sin of Adam, thereby atoning for the sins of all human kind. As per God's requirement, an animal would work for the sins committed while living, but an animal cannot act as the intercessor for all time. Jesus was sent as a divine human to live a sinless life, die an innocent man and then when he was raised from the grave, he acts as the intercessor, the High Priest, for humans for all time. He can forgive our sins for all time because he is eternally pure and innocent.

4. Moral justice demands that the criminal alone must be punished for his transgressions.

God does not submit to human law, anyway he would never allow that which he loves most to suffer unless they chose to suffer. A father would take 40 lashes of the whip for his son. A woman would suffer a brutual beating for her daughter. Moral justice may demand that a child pay for their crimes, but it is rare that a parent won't step in if given the chance. God chose to reedem us through Jesus Christ, otherwise separation from him would be our only choice, and that is a cruel fate for all the humans that descended from Adam & Eve, to only be given the choice to die. Now, we have the choice to live (or die).

5. No one can take the place of someone else's sins, even if that person were willing.

Physically, this is false. Spiritually this is false. Judicially, this may be true.

Physically: If someone has determined that as a result of an insult or some kind of gesture that occured they would like to punish someone by beating or killing them, any person can step in and if they are willing to pay the price, which could very well be their life, then once the person is beaton (or dead), the issue is resolved. Someone has atoned.

Spiritually: Just because you believe that no on can atone for the evil you have done, doesn't make it true. According to the Christian belief, if you accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, that his suffering was for you, then he can atone for all the evil you have committed and present you to the Lord as pure.

Judicially: There may be some countries that allow people to take on the prison term or work for a parent or family member that is serving at the same time.

6. It is morally wrong to accept an offer to take my place for the things I have done wrong.

If we think over our sins, we can agree that no one deserves to pay for the evil we have committed, but us. Sacrifice for someone that is undeserving is love. That is the true definition of love. To care for someone that does not know you, care about you, or desiring to honor and respect you is to love them. This is the reason people become so hysterical as Jesus freaks, it's because God has loved us before we were even conceived and he created a path for us to be redeemed even though we don't deserve it. It's so easy morally or otherwise to love someone that is kind to us, but can you love someone that is flogging you? Can you love someone that has sexually abused you or beat you? Can you love someone who abandoned you? The love that Christians receive is from Christ himself and it's an all-consuming love that is not bound by human morals and restrictions, it reaches out to include the hated, the burned and the weary.

If you have any more questions or statements, let me know, I'll do my best to answer them.

Are you that stupid?

He's not, just taking whatever opportunity he gets to put forward "the good word". I'm still waiting to hear which word it is exactly that is supposed to be good.

(August 29, 2011 at 2:01 pm)salty Wrote: God does not submit to human law, anyway he would never allow that which he loves most to suffer unless they chose to suffer.

This is a steaming pile of male bovine excrement.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing while children suffer from cancer and die.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing and allows people to suffer from river blindness.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing and allows natural disasters to kill people and destroy homes.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing and allows babies to be born with horrible birth defects.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing and allows people to suffer from mental illness.

I could go on and on....

(August 29, 2011 at 2:09 pm)Thor Wrote:

(August 29, 2011 at 2:01 pm)salty Wrote: God does not submit to human law, anyway he would never allow that which he loves most to suffer unless they chose to suffer.

This is a steaming pile of male bovine excrement.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing while children suffer from cancer and die.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing and allows people to suffer from river blindness.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing and allows natural disasters to kill people and destroy homes.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing and allows babies to be born with horrible birth defects.

If this is true, please explain why this deity does nothing and allows people to suffer from mental illness.

I could go on and on....

Would an explination make you believe in the saving power of Jesus Christ?