RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 12, 2018 at 1:27 pm
(March 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm)SteveII Wrote:(March 12, 2018 at 12:06 pm)Mathilda Wrote: Name something that began to exist and tell us the exact moment this would have happened and the cause.
You might be able to manage it, I don't know. But for sure you can't say this about everything.
Item (cause)
Most of the elements/compounds that make up my keyboard began to exist (stars, pressure, other chemical reactions)
So your keyboard began to exist billions of years ago? At which point? When the last atom in your keyboard became the necessary element required for the chemical reaction? When the elements were used in the final chemical reactions that make up the matter in your keyboard? When it was finally asembled.
(March 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: This post (me, electricity, my computer components, the internet and all the hardware necessary to maintain that connection)
When did it begin to exist? When you started typing it? When you hit send? When the server received the response? When the server unlocked the database after updating it? When the webserver first displayed it because someone refreshed the thread?
(March 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: I began to exist. (parents, biological processes)
When your father's sperm cell invaded the wall of your mother's egg? When the egg started dividing? When you were born?
(March 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: My office began to exist (a builder, some supplies)
When the very first elements were formed that make up the office? When the final brick was laid down? When you moved in and started using it as an office? When the final fixture was fitted?
(March 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: Our sun began to exist (dense gasses and whatnot)
When it was still a nebular? When the shockwave of a supernova hit it? When the ignition first started with the first atom? When the last atom in the nebular got swallowed up? When the first photon of light was emitted?
(March 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: Our galaxy began to exist (more of the same)
More of the same.
(March 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm)SteveII Wrote: Now give me examples of things that don't have causes.
Lest you think you can play around, let's use the same definition of the word:
cause
kôz/
noun
- 1.
a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition.
No. Let's not use that definition. Because my entire point is that using the word 'cause' in the KCA is equivocation and conflation. The word is meant to be used as short hand to communicate information quickly. Fine in every day language if I am going to say "Sorry, I caused that explosion", but not precise enough to hang an entire belief system on.
This is because reality is not broken down into discrete events. It is a continuous changing process made up of a myriad of smaller continuous processes. Using the short hand term of 'cause' that is useful for our every day lives when talking about how the universe we currently see came about is conflation and takes the word out of scope.
So let's see the KCA re-written without the use of the word 'cause' in a way that acknowledges that the universe continually changes.
And if you did that then it still wouldn't help because I can even make the same argument for the word 'thing'. When does a thing begin and a thing end?