Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic

[possibletarian]

But that's the point, can you show they are anything but material ?  They don't only rely on material for their communication, but also for their very creation, communication, and understanding.

Do they exist or are created outside of a material brain? if so can you demonstrate this ?
Can you give an single example of abstract thought without a brain ?  Can you show they are anything more than material brain pulses. ?

Here is a good debate on the subject for those interested
https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/que...bout-ideas

Idea's like poetry and music are simply information created materially and passed materially from one place (or person) to another.

Your last sentence is the proof.

A novel or a symphony is something newly created that is not the same as the material object that might contain them. It did not exist before, it is not a reformulation of matter. It is new information. There is no way around this, you have a newly created immaterial object. Insisting that it is material because it relies on material things to exist is just pointing out a feature of our universe.

Goodness no one is saying that the symphony is made of the same material as the object that might create them, just like no one is saying that a symphony is brain matter re-arranged. If I create a Mandelbrot on my computer and print it out or look at it on the screen would you claim I was inferring that the computer had re-arranged it's matter ?

but a symphony just like the Mandelbrot is entirely created in, stored and distributed by the material world, if not, when does it leave those confines ? Music is simply a re-arrangement of notes, just because it's the first time we have heard it in that arrangement does not mean we have not heard its constituent parts before, in fact it's probably vital for our enjoyment of it.

Our universe and everything in it is material (so far as we know) to say it's a feature really is redundant.