Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic

[Jenny A]

I am objecting to the fact that the phrase "begin to exist" is used to describe one kind of change in premise one and another in premise two.  Premise one concerns change within the universe.  That kind of change involves only the change in form of pre-existing matter and energy.  Premise two refers to the creation of matter and energy.  We know that changes in the form of matter and energy within the universe requires causes.  We do not know if the creation of matter does.

Regarding, "begins to exist", that can be dealt with in two ways.

1) is to provide a univocal meaning of the phrase in both premises. So, let's go with comes into being. 
2) is to provide a more detailed meaning that would apply to both premises: x begins to exist if and only if x exists at some time t and there is no time t' prior to t at which x exists.

either one eliminates your objection. 

Either you are being disingenuous, or you don't understand the objection.  I'll explain it again.  When you say in premise 1 that all things that begin to exist have a cause, you are making an statement about the transformation of matter and energy from one form to another. If you include the universe in the set of all things that begin to exist then you are also talking about the creation of new matter.  The two  types of beginning to exist are fundamentally different. We see things in the universe transform all the time, and often can show the cause (really causes) of that transformation.   We do not see matter itself begin to exist.  We cannot say whether such a creation has a cause.  

Changing your phrase from beginning to exist to coming into being doesn't help you, because you are still talking about to fundamentally different types of comming into existence.

Matilda gets at this problem when she asks when a snowflake begins to exist.  It's rather hard to say as it doesn't spring into existenceall at once.  The crystalline shape of the water forms becomes a snowflake bit by bit. Water is added as it forms.  Similarly, a person is formed slowly over a long gestation period during which material is is continuously added.  Even after a person comes into existence material continues to be added and subtracted.  There is no precise beginning or end to this kind of material transformation.  And all of the little bits of transformation have their own causes.

The universe began with all of its material parts and it still had all of its material parts.  It began at a discrete time, i.e the first moment of time.  Prior to that there was no time.  

Your second more precise definition actually makes the problem clearer.  Because time begins with the beginning of the universe, it makes no sense to discuss whether there was a time before the universe existed.

What you have have here is an elementary category error, in that you have  a set which includes the set as a member of the set.  Your set incudes all material things, and the universe which is the set of all material things. Anytime you include a set in it's own set it leads to logical error.  For example, if you describe the set of all whole numbers and include set of of all whole numbers within the set then you end up with syllogisms like this.

All whole numbers are finite
The set all whole numbers is a whole number
Therefore the set of all whole numbers is finite.