RE: Disproving Odin - An Experiment in arguing with a theist with Theist logic
March 25, 2018 at 8:11 am
(March 25, 2018 at 5:23 am)downbeatplumb Wrote:(March 24, 2018 at 10:02 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: It seems that you appeal to a number of things as causes in this. As well, you by nothing (like L. Krauss) you seem to mean something rather than no thing. Where I would quibble, is that I do not believe that the laws of physics is a thing in and of it self. It is a description for the logical way in which things behave (Note: not nothing... well perhaps for some people).
I'm going to need more than a claim, to drop the belief in causality. I'm not willing to just take it on faith, because as we can see, there is some equivocating which is sometimes taken advantage of. Personally, I need a testimony of what was done, what was observed, and then specifics as to how it is determined to be without cause. For some skeptics I have heard, even the testimony of others would not be enough for such an extraordinary claim. Some may not believe, if they saw it themselves. The problem I have, is that this is the type of claim, that involves more than simple observation.
You alleged "god" is supposedly a sentient thing with powers, where did it come from and how did it acquire the powers and the stuff and time make the universe? Where did it exist before it did all that?
Positing a god only adds questions that I have never seen any theist even try to answer.
So far, we have only been discussing that the universe has a cause.
But a common objection is that everything needs to have a cause then. This is why the premise is formulated as "that which begins to exist". For something which didn't begin to exist, it is nonsense to require and explanation for that beginning (which did not occur). Similarly, God's power would not be something which is traditionally understood to be acquired. So to ask how it was acquired would be a non-sense question.
Also, while the idea of God may invoke a number of questions, and we may not have answers for all of them; the KCA is making specific claims, of which it is saying that the classically understood God of theism best fits as an explanation to those attributes.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther