RE: Questions for "Our Role(s) as Christians on Atheist Forums"
May 16, 2018 at 8:50 am
(This post was last modified: May 16, 2018 at 8:55 am by SteveII.)
(May 15, 2018 at 11:13 pm)Hammy Wrote:(May 15, 2018 at 9:46 am)SteveII Wrote: Fine, I will clarify. However, libertarian free will is not "essentially uncaused choice." It is that the cause is internal mental processes that are themselves not physically determined.
Libertarian free will demands more than that: It demands that the universe be both indeterministic and the beings that live in it are able to determine themselves (a contradiction). It both dismisses causes and asks for a special pleading for self-causes in the case of humans (or any beings with a supposed soul). And yet even if the special-pleading were granted it would still be impossible because it would demand us to be self-causing which is completely incoherent.
An excellent summary of why many Christian philosophers think that the Argument from Consciousness is developing into the most compelling natural theology argument for the existence of God. It completely undermines a strictly naturalistic world. That is why you think the concept incoherent--because it is...in your worldview.
I'm not going to continue to hijack this thread. If you want to keep talking about it, start a new thread.
(May 16, 2018 at 8:28 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:(May 15, 2018 at 11:07 am)SteveII Wrote: You continue to miss my point. You are confusing foreknowledge with middle knowledge. It is not that God knows what you are going to do (foreknowledge), he knows what you will choose to do as a result of perfect knowledge of you and all the antecedents and conditions of your choice (middle knowledge). The key concept is how he obtains that knowledge. He has not seen the future event. He knows the truth of all future subjunctive conditional statements of what someone will freely choose do in a range of circumstances (whether they are realized or not). The mechanics of the choice are still in place.
Well, I think your Molinism is not an actual solution to the problem Molinists think that it solves, but I have a question.
Given God's 'middle knowledge' about Adam and Eve, what do you think was the probability that they would not eat the apple?
Zero. Eventually, given enough time any set of people with free will would.
