RE: Soul - your views on it?
September 8, 2011 at 3:56 am
(This post was last modified: September 8, 2011 at 4:00 am by fr0d0.)
Cheers WC
From nothing
2. If its the same entity/material as God what is the distinction?
Same substance, different person, like you and I
3. Why did god think it clever to make me so weak that all I [we] can do with it is cling to existence? Why can't I [we] do simple things with it, not tremendous tasks (i.e create a universe) but heal sicknesses with "my [our] spirit"? Why was I given so much just created to be so powerless? This is even the case in other fictional works like LoTR for example. Are we the subject of some divine prank? An artist who deliberately draws derpy characters for his own amusement?
You are limited by your inhibitions. If you had the faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain.
4. If man's spirit was created, whereas god's always existed before space-time, begotten not created or whatever, why do so many Christians argue its indestructible as well? Logically, they [we're] were created and therefore can be destroyed just as easily right?
'We' (our spirits) are immoratal. Time> just not >Time>
They're the same, only different persons. God gets to have three persons... father and son as well as spirit.
Well God did it this way... he could have done it any way he wanted. You ask why he did it this way.. he did and that's that. It's too massive a subject to try to re-organise a universe and come up with a working model. I don't really care for that.. I'm happy to work with what we've got. I can't see how it could be better myself... sure we have pain and sufferring... but how do you propose a working system without those things? I can't see how.
Are you arguing that this god concept could have done it all naturally? You do realise the obvious implication of stating this? It concludes there are no souls, only God is truly "real". Its not quite a 'slippery slope' but you have to admit its basically you conceding and thus killing the discussion before its started.
Well God makes the laws of physics... so natural is what he decides it is. If you think that the laws of nature follow logic... then they could be no different could they?? That's what I mean by the complexity of designing it any other way.
Natural doesn't rule out souls, because we're not talking supernatural yet.
]I think you iognored the person bit. Are we schitsophrenic humans because we're subdivided into persons? No. That's not how schizophrenia works: It has to be a subdivision of one person. These are separate persons.
It also raises problematic issues on the matter in that if we're all god, and he judges us (him) then he is essentially condemning himself to hell which would cause a lot of controversy among your peers. Its like arguing that god was a mindless entity before time that at some point or other "gained sentience", and he fathoms he is all that is "real" in the abyss that surrounds him, everything else is merely his imagination. He's utterly alone in a void therefore now is on the verge of going completely insane.
We decide the fate of our spirit. It's potential in us. If we decide that being God-like is what we want... then we become like him. Man with God's spirit in us. At death that is perfected in that we become all spirit. A defiant spirit carries on until eventually it accepts the unavoidable truth, and becomes like God too.
If the writers of the Bible weren't asshats they could have played up god to be the most tragic and lonely figure of all time, one worthy of empathy and sympathy
Well there you go re-inventing the perfect model, and making it break.
Quote:God put spirit in us. It is the same as God's spirit.1. How? Did he split himself or create it from nothing?
From nothing
2. If its the same entity/material as God what is the distinction?
Same substance, different person, like you and I
3. Why did god think it clever to make me so weak that all I [we] can do with it is cling to existence? Why can't I [we] do simple things with it, not tremendous tasks (i.e create a universe) but heal sicknesses with "my [our] spirit"? Why was I given so much just created to be so powerless? This is even the case in other fictional works like LoTR for example. Are we the subject of some divine prank? An artist who deliberately draws derpy characters for his own amusement?
You are limited by your inhibitions. If you had the faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain.
4. If man's spirit was created, whereas god's always existed before space-time, begotten not created or whatever, why do so many Christians argue its indestructible as well? Logically, they [we're] were created and therefore can be destroyed just as easily right?
'We' (our spirits) are immoratal. Time> just not >Time>
Quote:I think only humans have spirits.What is the difference between a man's spirit and/or soul and god's spirit and/or soul? Soul or spirit, I need to know your definitions because otherwise they're both overused meaningless terms.
They're the same, only different persons. God gets to have three persons... father and son as well as spirit.
Quote:God could have done anything.Now I'm more perplexed than before. >.< Just what is your position in this debate Frodo? Maybe I'm not understanding you, or you're not clarifying your argument concisely for me?
Well God did it this way... he could have done it any way he wanted. You ask why he did it this way.. he did and that's that. It's too massive a subject to try to re-organise a universe and come up with a working model. I don't really care for that.. I'm happy to work with what we've got. I can't see how it could be better myself... sure we have pain and sufferring... but how do you propose a working system without those things? I can't see how.
Are you arguing that this god concept could have done it all naturally? You do realise the obvious implication of stating this? It concludes there are no souls, only God is truly "real". Its not quite a 'slippery slope' but you have to admit its basically you conceding and thus killing the discussion before its started.
Well God makes the laws of physics... so natural is what he decides it is. If you think that the laws of nature follow logic... then they could be no different could they?? That's what I mean by the complexity of designing it any other way.
Natural doesn't rule out souls, because we're not talking supernatural yet.
Quote:If we all have a spirit that is like God, that doesn't make us God. We are separate persons.Yes but then we're in danger of going down the 'we're living-manifestations of this deity's schizophrenia' route again by asserting this. You haven't established the difference between god's spirits' ontology and a humans' immaterial essence or whatever. That's the stumbling block of theodicy, it can't discern god's spirit [matter] from anyone's else's, including Satan's.
]I think you iognored the person bit. Are we schitsophrenic humans because we're subdivided into persons? No. That's not how schizophrenia works: It has to be a subdivision of one person. These are separate persons.
It also raises problematic issues on the matter in that if we're all god, and he judges us (him) then he is essentially condemning himself to hell which would cause a lot of controversy among your peers. Its like arguing that god was a mindless entity before time that at some point or other "gained sentience", and he fathoms he is all that is "real" in the abyss that surrounds him, everything else is merely his imagination. He's utterly alone in a void therefore now is on the verge of going completely insane.
We decide the fate of our spirit. It's potential in us. If we decide that being God-like is what we want... then we become like him. Man with God's spirit in us. At death that is perfected in that we become all spirit. A defiant spirit carries on until eventually it accepts the unavoidable truth, and becomes like God too.
If the writers of the Bible weren't asshats they could have played up god to be the most tragic and lonely figure of all time, one worthy of empathy and sympathy
Well there you go re-inventing the perfect model, and making it break.
