(July 16, 2018 at 2:28 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: So, in other words, by pretending you were responding to the video, you were essentially lying. Gotcha. I think I understand what you call honest scholarship now.No, it meant that I know this argument already; responded to it a lot in here too.
Cherry picking vocabulary from verses that involve "orders of killing somebody else" or "orders of mutilating people" is not a hard job with the Quran. But books are not about the vocabulary; they are about the context built by the vocabulary. This argument is the same broken record repeated from the days of Ahmed Deedat:
Quote:What I see is that the context you provided, surah 9:8, refers to the polytheists, whereas surah 9:29 is referring to those who "were given the scripture," which refers to the Jews and Christians, not the polytheists. Moreover, even with respect to the polytheists, Mohammad says, "So fulfill the treaty with them to the end of its term....[but] When the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them. And capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush." That isn't any kind of defensive action at all, and the surahs you quote as "context" are merely justification for open warfare. Regardless, this is about surah 9:29, and the context you provided is talking about a different group. The context is clear, Mohammad is denying the polytheists access to the sacred mosque, and in order to make up the lost income, he proposes war on the Jews and Christians.
So, no, he didn't cherry pick anything.
Mohammed -peace be upon him- was ordered to ambush and fight the polytheists who fought him indeed, but he was also ordered -in the next verse- to spare any polytheist that came in peace:
Quote:Sura 9, The Quran:
( 1 ) [This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
( 2 ) So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
( 3 ) And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah. And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
( 4 ) Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
( 5 ) And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
( 6 ) And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
Mohammed made a treaty with the heathens of Mecca, he also made a treaty with the "Jews and Christians" at Medinah -which the jews broke; I even posted the link for it from wikipedia in the previous comment to you-:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Quray...the_Trench
Quote: Wrote:Tensions quickly mounted between the growing numbers of Muslims and Jewish tribes, while Muhammad found himself at war with his native Meccan tribe of the Quraysh. In 624, after his victory over the Meccans in the Battle of Badr, Banu Qaynuqa threatened Muhammad's political position and assaulted a Muslim woman which led to their expulsion from Medina for breaking the peace treaty of Constitution of Medina.[32][33] The Qurayza remained passive during the whole Qaynuqa affair, apparently because the Qaynuqa were historically allied with the Khazraj, while the Qurayza were the allies of the Aws.[34]
That's why the Jewish war tribes were fought. I should also mention that they entered an alliance with the heathens of Mecca -Mohammed's arch enemies-:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trench
Quote:It's always somebody else's fault, isn't it, Atlas? I'm getting sick of your tu quoque arguments, your lies, and your attempts to twist scripture to fit your modernist narrative. You're full of shit. You didn't watch the video. You didn't refute his arguments. You didn't provide any justifying context for surah 9:29. And you didn't provide any justification for Mohammad's ruthless behavior ("There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often." Surah 33:21).
The reason I hold to this religion so much is my despise for the level of cruelty the modern human reached; being born today doesn't mean that I forgot what happened 80 years ago.
I'm seeing the pattern of a man who broke treaties when a single woman of his people got hurt, also I'm seeing a man who "gave peace to confused enemies" just like Sura 9:6 foretold, that's a one fine pattern, better than tactical bombings, nuclear bombs, generating money out of thin air, right?
and all of that before 1400 years. It wasn't him, it was the orders of God though.
Quote:You're full of shit to the core, Atlas.
Btw, I could care less whether you think I'm "worthy of convincing you." That's just stupid arrogance talking on your part. Maybe if you'd asked nicely for a summarization of the points in the video, I might have obliged. But seeing as you pretended to have watched the video, pretended to have rebutted its arguments, and only now are demanding the argument be presented differently, I think you can go fuck yourself.
I was referring to the man in the video, serpent, not you !
His argument is repeated a lot, since the 80s and the 90s and maybe even older, all of them have one answer: context.
