RE: the god created science argument
September 18, 2011 at 11:47 pm
(This post was last modified: September 18, 2011 at 11:59 pm by DeistPaladin.)
(September 18, 2011 at 11:33 pm)lucent Wrote: Premise one is false. It does not follow that if something exists it can be discovered. Specifically, God, being in total control, and even if He wasn't totally inaccessible to our instrumentation, could easily frustrate any attempt we made at finding Him. God could only be found if He wished to be found. Which is why trying to prove God is irrational, so only He could give the evidence that He really exists.
When did your god become so shy? He once gave a public address to the nation of Judea in Judges chapter 1. Jesus said that those of faith should be able to heal the sick and cast out demons (Mark 16:17-18). He once routinely spoke to his prophets face to face according to Exodus 33:11. Throughout the OT, we see Yahweh speaking directly to his prophets. In the NT, he hardly abandoned the practice, speaking as a booming voice to all who could hear at the baptism of Jesus (Mark 1:11, Matt 3:17, Luke 3:22). The Book of Acts is filled with all manner of supernatural events, from angelic intervention to Paul working divinely channeled magic.
I could cite many other passages and examples of overt communication from Yahweh in the OT and new, as well as many supernatural events. One can barely turn a page in the Bible without reading some account of supernatural disturbance.
Why is it, if these stories are true, that I look about now and see a natural universe? When did your god become so shy?
Sorry, in my earlier post I got side tracked by a topic that always interested me since I read the Bible cover to cover and couldn't help notice the stark contrast between the world that book depicted and the one I always experienced.
Getting back to my point, yes a specific being omniscent enough could avoid detection. That wasn't my point. My point was that if the supernatural were real, we could study it, understand its properties and classify it as part of the natural universe.
For example, let's say ghosts really are real. Then it might be possible to study them and their properties like we study animals in the wild. The movie "Ghostbusters" with all their gadgets might be created in reality to detect spiritual disturbances.
If God turns out to be real, we could understand this being if only we had sufficient knowledge. God might prevent us from acquiring the knowledge but that wouldn't change that the knowledge would still be out there to be discovered or hidden away by your shy deity.
Now a real life example of supernatural that comes to be classified as natural: the placebo effect.
It sounds mystical at first blush. How you think and your emotional state can effect your ability to recover from some illnesses? It comes across as woo, the kind of thing you might hear from New Agers. But it is a real and observed effect. Medical science is now studying it closer to try to understand it better. What sounds like supernatural comes to be classified as part of our understanding of the natural universe. All it takes is more knowledge and a willingness to discover the truth.
As a deist, I believe that as we come closer to understanding our universe, we come closer to understanding God. If our knowledge were limitless, we could understand the nature, properties and limitations of God. Even God would be part of the natural universe.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
