I said some time ago that healing Stephen Hawking would convince me of the existence of your god (or the Muslim god, depending on who pulls it off). We could determine the nature of his prior condition and also his recovery.
God has chosen to make Himself know through His Son by the preaching of His word. Sometimes He supplements that by giving signs, dreams, visions, and healings. We can debate whether He does these things all day, but the point is that He doesn't need to openly demonstrate His power to reach people. The number of Christians in the world speak to that.
Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe
The problem isn't evidence. At any time, God could make Himself known to you. You have made it abudently clear though, that you don't want to know Him. As you have shown in all your replies, you are practically clamouring for an opportunity to wedge in some insult against Him. You can't go even a few sentences without including a disparaging remark. So, why should He reveal His existence to you? You give Him every reason to let you continue believing in your deistic worldview of a god that considers you on the same level of pond scum.
I've provided you with chapter and verse that describes an anthropomorphic deity. It wasn't until the NT that the Christians even thought of making him a spiritual being.
Are you sure you've read the bible?
Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.
Exodus 13:21
By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night.
Genesis 1:2
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Yes He had physical appearences, and he also appeared as natural and supernatural elements, spoke through dreams and visions, from a cloud, etc.
Well, what is the definition of faith, then? Let's go to your Bible once again:
Actually, how about we read the whole passage instead:
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because hea considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
These people all had a reasoned faith. They knew God was real and they believed in His promises. This is the type of faith that God is talking about; trusting in the Lord and what He has promised, even though He isn't right in front of us. We are sure of our hope in Gods promises, and certain that He did what He said He did, and will do.
John 20:29
Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
This is why as Confucius said "To know that which we do not know is true knowledge" or as Data from Star Trek said, "The beginning of all wisdom is the phrase, 'I don't know'."
1 Corinthians 1:21
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
I have an instinct when I look at the natural universe and the progress of human reason that there is some mysterious cause behind it, "God" is as good a word as any. It is not a conviction grounded in reason, I admit, and so I maintain a strong distinction in my own mind between what I know and what I believe.
When I speak of "faith" and what I am against, it's accepting something as unquestioningly true simply on someone else's say-so. Why else do you believe the Bible is God's Word?
What you have is faith. You can call it instinct or whatever you like, but to believe in something you have never seen is faith.
Now you criticize me for my faith, which is reasoned, when you have admitted that you have blind faith, which is not based in reason. Strange, that. I don't believe in the bible because someone told me its true. I believe in the bible because God confirmed its truth to me before I ever read it. So when I read the bible I found it to be about the God I already knew. I came to Christianity completely independently, and wasn't led by anyone. I had never even once been witnessed to in my entire life.
Scientific knowledge is based on peer-review and repeatable tests. While it is true I accept what scientists tell us about the age of the universe or the evolution of our species, I need not do so on faith alone. I can conduct research or even pursue a degree in one of their fields to confirm what they have discovered. This is knowledge that is recorded, tested and available to anyone who has the time and inclination.
Your faith in science as the source of all truth is unfounded. Science is a philosophical discipline based on empiricism, which is an epistemological belief about the acquisition of knowledge through observation and measurement.
There is no such thing as philosophy-free science; there is only science whose philosophical baggage is taken on board without examination." Daniel Dennett
Science doesn't actually prove or disprove anything. The religious belief that it does is called scientism. What science does is tests to see if a particular theory can be disproven, but it cannot actually prove a theory. Science cannot even prove itself as being a rational method for determining anything which is true.
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality." Nikola Tesla
I'm not the one who said "abandoned". This is a straw man that Christians have come up with in a definition of deism that is not based on any deist philosopher that I know of.
I see it as a matter of scale. If we suppose the existence of a being that created hundreds of millions of galaxies (of which we are a pale blue dot) some 13.5 billion years ago (of which we've been around for a few hundred thousand at most), than it logically follows that this being should be expected to have no more awareness of us than a scientist is of individual bacteria cells within a cultivated colony living in a petri dish. To suppose that we should be able to pray to such a being, that it would have a personal relationship with us or have any desire for our worship seems kind of silly when you take it all in.
This point is underscored by what I imagine as a Far-Side-esqe cartoon, one bacteria cell saying to another, "Let me tell you of my personal relationship with the Great Labcoat in The Sky."
What you suppose is a being powerful enough to create and manage a Universe, but one that is powerless, oblivious or callously disinterested in the creatures it created. The scale of the Universe has no bearing on an all powerful being, who is not limited by the constraints of matter. It also has no bearing on whether he would care for his creatures, individually.
Such a being, allowing great suffering and evil and delusion to take place with no intervention and no justice, is morally bankrupt. That we are so much less than he is is just greater evidence of how morally bankrupt this creator really is.
A God who would create life with no power to intervene, but just to watch what happens, is stupid, inept and cruel.
A God who did have power to intervene but did nothing but watch his creatures suffer and die is evil.
Why should we expect anything different, for reasons I've outlined above?
I've said before that Nature's God is a hard ass and It ain't gonna carry you on any beach. In stressful times when I've needed to reassure myself, I don't pray for an invisible hand to make it all better. I tell myself I have already been given all that I need. The rest is up to us.
We shouldn't expect anything different from a god that is morally bankrupt. And you haven't been given all you need, because there are no guanatees. You could lose your life today having gained nothing but a meaningless death, one that your god wouldnt even note. The God you speak of may as well not even exist, and he doesn't, because God is personal.
What you and every other deist is stuck on is the problem of evil, and why you don't accept a personal God..so you imagine a God that is so far removed from us that evil is suddenly somehow jusitifed by neglect. You can't accept a God that is directly involved because that means He allows evil as part of His plan..but you can accept a God that is completely absent, even though he is also allowing evil. You just excuse him for it like a neglected child...ohh he is just so busy! Or, its okay, we're just bacteria..why would he care about bacteria? Hes just so much better than us, you know? You reject a loving God, but a dead beat dad, thats fine for you somehow. Very strange, I would say.
God has chosen to make Himself know through His Son by the preaching of His word. Sometimes He supplements that by giving signs, dreams, visions, and healings. We can debate whether He does these things all day, but the point is that He doesn't need to openly demonstrate His power to reach people. The number of Christians in the world speak to that.
Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe
The problem isn't evidence. At any time, God could make Himself known to you. You have made it abudently clear though, that you don't want to know Him. As you have shown in all your replies, you are practically clamouring for an opportunity to wedge in some insult against Him. You can't go even a few sentences without including a disparaging remark. So, why should He reveal His existence to you? You give Him every reason to let you continue believing in your deistic worldview of a god that considers you on the same level of pond scum.
I've provided you with chapter and verse that describes an anthropomorphic deity. It wasn't until the NT that the Christians even thought of making him a spiritual being.
Are you sure you've read the bible?
Exodus 3:2
And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed.
Exodus 13:21
By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night.
Genesis 1:2
The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Yes He had physical appearences, and he also appeared as natural and supernatural elements, spoke through dreams and visions, from a cloud, etc.
Well, what is the definition of faith, then? Let's go to your Bible once again:
Actually, how about we read the whole passage instead:
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because hea considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
These people all had a reasoned faith. They knew God was real and they believed in His promises. This is the type of faith that God is talking about; trusting in the Lord and what He has promised, even though He isn't right in front of us. We are sure of our hope in Gods promises, and certain that He did what He said He did, and will do.
John 20:29
Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
This is why as Confucius said "To know that which we do not know is true knowledge" or as Data from Star Trek said, "The beginning of all wisdom is the phrase, 'I don't know'."
1 Corinthians 1:21
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
I have an instinct when I look at the natural universe and the progress of human reason that there is some mysterious cause behind it, "God" is as good a word as any. It is not a conviction grounded in reason, I admit, and so I maintain a strong distinction in my own mind between what I know and what I believe.
When I speak of "faith" and what I am against, it's accepting something as unquestioningly true simply on someone else's say-so. Why else do you believe the Bible is God's Word?
What you have is faith. You can call it instinct or whatever you like, but to believe in something you have never seen is faith.
Now you criticize me for my faith, which is reasoned, when you have admitted that you have blind faith, which is not based in reason. Strange, that. I don't believe in the bible because someone told me its true. I believe in the bible because God confirmed its truth to me before I ever read it. So when I read the bible I found it to be about the God I already knew. I came to Christianity completely independently, and wasn't led by anyone. I had never even once been witnessed to in my entire life.
Scientific knowledge is based on peer-review and repeatable tests. While it is true I accept what scientists tell us about the age of the universe or the evolution of our species, I need not do so on faith alone. I can conduct research or even pursue a degree in one of their fields to confirm what they have discovered. This is knowledge that is recorded, tested and available to anyone who has the time and inclination.
Your faith in science as the source of all truth is unfounded. Science is a philosophical discipline based on empiricism, which is an epistemological belief about the acquisition of knowledge through observation and measurement.
There is no such thing as philosophy-free science; there is only science whose philosophical baggage is taken on board without examination." Daniel Dennett
Science doesn't actually prove or disprove anything. The religious belief that it does is called scientism. What science does is tests to see if a particular theory can be disproven, but it cannot actually prove a theory. Science cannot even prove itself as being a rational method for determining anything which is true.
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality." Nikola Tesla
I'm not the one who said "abandoned". This is a straw man that Christians have come up with in a definition of deism that is not based on any deist philosopher that I know of.
I see it as a matter of scale. If we suppose the existence of a being that created hundreds of millions of galaxies (of which we are a pale blue dot) some 13.5 billion years ago (of which we've been around for a few hundred thousand at most), than it logically follows that this being should be expected to have no more awareness of us than a scientist is of individual bacteria cells within a cultivated colony living in a petri dish. To suppose that we should be able to pray to such a being, that it would have a personal relationship with us or have any desire for our worship seems kind of silly when you take it all in.
This point is underscored by what I imagine as a Far-Side-esqe cartoon, one bacteria cell saying to another, "Let me tell you of my personal relationship with the Great Labcoat in The Sky."
What you suppose is a being powerful enough to create and manage a Universe, but one that is powerless, oblivious or callously disinterested in the creatures it created. The scale of the Universe has no bearing on an all powerful being, who is not limited by the constraints of matter. It also has no bearing on whether he would care for his creatures, individually.
Such a being, allowing great suffering and evil and delusion to take place with no intervention and no justice, is morally bankrupt. That we are so much less than he is is just greater evidence of how morally bankrupt this creator really is.
A God who would create life with no power to intervene, but just to watch what happens, is stupid, inept and cruel.
A God who did have power to intervene but did nothing but watch his creatures suffer and die is evil.
Why should we expect anything different, for reasons I've outlined above?
I've said before that Nature's God is a hard ass and It ain't gonna carry you on any beach. In stressful times when I've needed to reassure myself, I don't pray for an invisible hand to make it all better. I tell myself I have already been given all that I need. The rest is up to us.
We shouldn't expect anything different from a god that is morally bankrupt. And you haven't been given all you need, because there are no guanatees. You could lose your life today having gained nothing but a meaningless death, one that your god wouldnt even note. The God you speak of may as well not even exist, and he doesn't, because God is personal.
What you and every other deist is stuck on is the problem of evil, and why you don't accept a personal God..so you imagine a God that is so far removed from us that evil is suddenly somehow jusitifed by neglect. You can't accept a God that is directly involved because that means He allows evil as part of His plan..but you can accept a God that is completely absent, even though he is also allowing evil. You just excuse him for it like a neglected child...ohh he is just so busy! Or, its okay, we're just bacteria..why would he care about bacteria? Hes just so much better than us, you know? You reject a loving God, but a dead beat dad, thats fine for you somehow. Very strange, I would say.
(September 20, 2011 at 2:56 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: I've said before that Nature's God is a hard ass and It ain't gonna carry you on any beach. In stressful times when I've needed to reassure myself, I don't pray for an invisible hand to make it all better. I tell myself I have already been given all that I need. The rest is up to us.
