RE: The world's population should be at most 50 million.
October 10, 2018 at 9:08 am
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2018 at 9:37 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 10, 2018 at 8:56 am)onlinebiker Wrote:Not at all, but I'd add that the pay we receive for our work has more to do with lack of access to resources than how many people there are on the planet. Hilariously (in a gallows humor kind of way) a significant amount of starvation involves people who work on farms..and have money to pay...but can't pay -as much- as..say, the american market for which it was intended. It's never entirely sold, but they starve the locals while they hold product for sale..and because it's perishable - a significant amount is lost even as people hold their hands out, full of money, but can't buy in. Perhaps we should find a way to pay the producer more for his labor.(October 9, 2018 at 6:29 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Absolutely, they're burning through the shit. On the one hand we can see that this is problematic..but on the other, it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say that if you want life to look like x in your country, there's a certain chunk of fossil fuels you can burn through to get there. We did it, and sitting up here seeking to close that door behind us is a tough sell.
Better to provide compelling alternatives to the burning of those fuels that will produce the increase desired. It's just a shame we went the other way with it. Deregulating and stagnating at the level of federal policy.
(that ship needs to be righted. IIRC, we spend ten times as much on fossil fuel subsidy compared to renewables)
I'm sure it helps.
I think I can find a way to tie you, bker, and you, thoreau...to a single communal issue and then explain why we might just want to keep those poors around, bringing all three of us into a sort of agreement. Follow me through the weeds, tell me what you think.
If we agree that fossil fuel consumption is a global problem. If we agree that our food systems are based start to finish on oil. Let;s talk about a post fossil fuel reality.
Who is going to do the work that all of those fossil fuel consuming machines and methodologies do? If we want to phase out fossil fuels (and we all three do, I think, yes?), then we might want to hang a now hiring sign out right now and get a headstart on manpower. Alternative methodologies are, as a rule..labor and management intensive.
So your solution to poverty is indentured servitude, slavery, or minimum wage?
As if there's a difference to those at the bottom.
I'm commenting on the reality of a post fossil fuel world, though - and in contradiction to your assertion that a larger pop has only disadvantages. There is alot of mechanical and chemical work being done by petro. This work will have to be done some other way.
I'll give you a concrete example. The average marketable yield of a conventional field of leafy greens/lettuce is 24k head an acre. This is -with- expensive and fuel guzzling equipment and fertility, and seasonal (chronically underpaid) guest workers. There's an integrated system that fits on .12 acres, yields 14k head, and in the process 2 tons of fresh fish. No petrochem is required (or can be used)..and it needs sixty hours of labor a week, allowing for 40k USD for a manager, 20k USD for part timers....year round...it's soiless, a closed loop, and can be constructed with (cheap) off the shelf components. There is no place in the world that people exist, that this can't be built and operated by the locals.
Now, juxtapose that against what we have. Less than 2% of us feed the rest, and we can only do it in the way that we are because of petrochem. To do it some other way, at least for now...will require alot more people..and those intensive systems that could fit the bill require steadier labor that can command higher rates of pay..doing tasks that resist automation. Agricultural talent is currently in high demand, and we have an opportunity to change the way we grow food..and the qol of the people who grow it...but we need people. Yes, we can shift labor to a point..but we can only cannibalize labor so much before we see losses of productivity in other necessary areas.
A long way of saying, many hands make light work..and post petrochem ag is a huge lift.
There are other less intuitive ways of addressing the issues of starvation or malnourishment. Were you aware that nearly a quarter of the families served by the largest food bank umbrella (in the us, ofc) are suffering from diseases either caused, or exacerbated, by their diets? Food banks are repositories for junk food...compounding this issue, for one simple reason. As a rule, they lack sufficient cold storage. If you wanted to cut down on starvation and malnourishment, you could do more by installing cost effective diy walk ins than by not having a kid. The amount of kids you have (or are in an area) doesn't necessarily effect the other.
*granted the holy grail of sustainable agronomy, is to match petro-independent innovation to the bleeding edge of autonomation - putting all those new "factory food" workers out of a job some day in the same way that employment in the automotive industry went boom then bust - but even in this, our productive capacity would increase, relieving pressure on the issue insomuch as productivity can.
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