(October 15, 2018 at 10:45 pm)wyzas Wrote:(October 15, 2018 at 10:36 pm)mfigurski80 Wrote: You're using the everyday definition... here's a more rigorous take from apologetics.net: "In philosophy, objective refers to existence apart from perception" (http://www.apologetics.net/post/What-is-objective-morality.aspx)
Main difference here is that it's not only not influenced by personal feelings, but has a truth value absolutely separate from perception.
Also, a point I have repeated, explained, and re-explained: Multiple differing opinions do not prove subjectivity
I shall provide the example: Claudius Ptolemaeus is of the opinion that the sun orbits the earth. You and I are presumably of the opinion that the earth orbits around the sun. We have 2 different opinions, therefore: by your argument, the solar system is subjective and so existing only in relation to one's perception. Yet, the heliocentric model is objective, as it exists independently of anyone's perception. To argue otherwise is to doubt reality itself.
Therefore, differing opinions are not enough to demonstrate subjectivity
Therefore, by showing that opinions differ on morality, you did not demonstrate morality to be subjective.
Also, I did not admit to subjective morality by my position on killing: I hold that position to be true apart from anyone's perception. My position can be as specific and situational as it wants, it will always be true regardless of perception or other effects. Just because morality isn't simple doesn't mean you get to call it subjective.
Note, I am not trying to defend my position here, just demonstrating how I treat my positions.
Will save the article tho, it seems like a good Hume summary. Thank you.
We are discussing morals, not scientific facts where there is a definite correct and incorrect position/determination. Differing opinions with regard to a moral statement makes that statement subjective.
Apologetics huh. Thought you might be in that herd, so not as "irrelevant" as your "Religious Views" would indicate. OK, give me a precise and narrowly defined example of a "truth value absolutely separate from perception" that applies to morals. Don't give more science or math gibberish.
Re killing: ya you did. To paraphrase sometimes killing is OK, sometimes not, therefore subjective.
That would make killing relative, not to be confused with subjective. The question is relative to what? Is it relative to the subject, or to the specifics of the event. Can throwing children into a wood chipper for the fun of it be moral, depending on the person?
Another example I seen recently was the old question, if a tree falls in the forest, and no one hears it, does it make a sound? If something is objective, it is true regardless of opinions or knowledge of it. It exists and is true regardless if everyone agrees, or even if no one believes.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther