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Morality
#1
Morality
I don't know anything about philosophy; and I'll be a liar if I said that I'm interested in it. To me; life is pretty much obvious; the shortest simple path is always the correct one; so no need for mazes and complications of what is simple.

But a confrontation of opinion always take place, and always fills this forum about "morality"; is it "subjective or objective", what makes a moral code better than the other...etc.

I think the answer is pretty simple: the conclusion of the action is what tells us if it's "morally good" or "morally bad".
A matter of weighing of the act's pros against cons.

Let's take sex without an official contract. That type of sex is enjoyable, allows for more freedom in picking up the partner, go easy on the person's wallet. Confronted with the cons of the possibility of producing a child, and the possibility of hurting a current spouse emotionally to great degrees.

Judging the act as "morally good" or "morally bad" is subjective. Take me: personally; I would never cause misery to a yet-to be born infant; and ruin his/her childhood through making them go through the pain of the absence of a parent, just because I wanted to enjoy myself.

But; that is subjective; totally. Others might not see it this way; others might consider my care "too much and mannered".

And measure on all other acts. The conclusion is what decides what's morally good from what's morally bad. It's subjective in its core; and a majority of people adapting the act does not mean it's an objective matter; but lots of subjective opinions that formed a fist disguised in objectivity.
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#2
RE: Morality
Objectivity and subjectivity aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Subjectivity means you experience a moral sense. But there is still plenty of objective truth behind morality: DNA, brain structure, environmental conditions and so on.

You can both say, "I cannot imagine allowing a child to be harmed," and also identify brain structures and processes involved when someone thinks about the protection of young people.
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#3
RE: Morality
(October 30, 2017 at 11:41 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I don't know anything about philosophy; and I'll be a liar if I said that I'm interested in it. To me; life is pretty much obvious; the shortest simple path is always the correct one; so no need for mazes and complications of what is simple.
In ideal circumstances, philosophy distills and clarifies.  When it's being used to confuse and obfuscate..it would be more accurate to call it a misuse....though, granted, it does have the effect of disabusing one of the notion that anything about life is pretty much obvious.

Quote:But a confrontation of opinion always take place, and always fills this forum about "morality"; is it "subjective or objective", what makes a moral code better than the other...etc.

I think the answer is pretty simple: the conclusion of the action is what tells us if it's "morally good" or "morally bad".
A matter of weighing of the act's pros against cons.
Consequentalist ethics.  Certainly an important component of any moral theory, but rarely the full picture.  The classic question being, do the ends justify the means?  

Quote:Let's take sex without an official contract. That type of sex is enjoyable, allows for more freedom in picking up the partner, go easy on the person's wallet. Confronted with the cons of the possibility of producing a child, and the possibility of hurting a current spouse emotionally to great degrees.
You're smuggling procreation and infidelity into "contractless sex".  More likely to confuse and obfuscate than distill and clarify...is this pretty much obvious?  

Quote:Judging the act as "morally good" or "morally bad" is subjective. Take me: personally; I would never cause misery to a yet-to be born infant; and ruin his/her childhood through making them go through the pain of the absence of a parent, just because I wanted to enjoy myself.
That's nice, but what about contractless sex?

Quote:But; that is subjective; totally. Others might not see it this way; others might consider my care "too much and mannered".
I consider your care predictably manufactured and entirely off subject, a subject which -you- proposed....actually.

Quote:And measure on all other acts. The conclusion is what decides what's morally good from what's morally bad. It's subjective in its core; and a majority of people adapting the act does not mean it's an objective matter; but lots of subjective opinions that formed a fist disguised in objectivity.
Objective morality isn't based on a large weight of subjective opinion, nor does it need to be solely determined by a specific conclusion of any given act. Most objective moral systems allow for consequentalist and deontological ethics (and more as well). Both the consequences of our actions and any duties we may perceive as relevant. They can even, as Benny mentioned above, include subjective perceptions as modifying factors in consequence and duty.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#4
RE: Morality
(October 31, 2017 at 12:04 am)bennyboy Wrote: Objectivity and subjectivity aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.  Subjectivity means you experience a moral sense.  But there is still plenty of objective truth behind morality: DNA, brain structure, environmental conditions and so on.

You can both say, "I cannot imagine allowing a child to be harmed," and also identify brain structures and processes involved when someone thinks about the protection of young people.

Emotions and their production are written in out DNA, meaning that "feeling bad" or feeling "guilty" about something is pretty much a given ability since birth. To me; that's more of a pointing to an intelligent designer behind our existence.
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#5
RE: Morality
Why, is there some unspoken requirement that you be an intelligently created thing in order to feel good or bad?  If you found out tomorrow that you were not an intelligently created thing..do you think that you'd suddenly stop feeling either emotion?

From another angle, if this ability is written in at birth, it certainly seems that the focus (and strength) of this ability is not. Is that indicative of poor or unintelligent design?

-and from the most relevant angle.....that was an awfully quick leap to "goddidit" from morality. From the standpoint of objective moral values god is an irrelevance. Supposing god did create us, he created us such that we were capable of recognizing and assessing moral facts of a matter...which we would be capable of doing if we were "built this way" regardless of who or what built us this way.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#6
RE: Morality
(October 31, 2017 at 12:28 am)Khemikal Wrote:
(October 30, 2017 at 11:41 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I don't know anything about philosophy; and I'll be a liar if I said that I'm interested in it. To me; life is pretty much obvious; the shortest simple path is always the correct one; so no need for mazes and complications of what is simple.
In ideal circumstances, philosophy distills and clarifies.  When it's being used to confuse and obfuscate..it would be more accurate to call it a misuse....though, granted, it does have the effect of disabusing one of the notion that anything about life is pretty much obvious.

But how do I know that it's a misuse? misuse according to whom?
Morality changes with the people; morality in Rome was so different that morality in modern day France. Morality in modern Egypt is so different than ancient Zulu tribal societies.

Quote:Consequentalist ethics.  Certainly an important component of any moral theory, but rarely the full picture.  The classic question being, do the ends justify the means? 

That's also a very subjective matter. Give me a society; make me live in it for a while; and I'll give you what they think "the justification of any given mean" is.
In Japan, it's okay to be pedophile. It's not pedophilia there. The minor's "age" is 12 or younger. So lots of intercourse would be considered "pedophilia" in the West.

But once you set foot in Japan; you're a foreigner outsider that should keep their moral code to themselves; since the people of the island already have a moral code which is pretty different than yours. Making it a fact that morals are a subjective matter.

Quote: You're smuggling procreation and infidelity into "contractless sex".  More likely to confuse and obfuscate than distill and clarify...is this pretty much obvious? 

Contracts keep the kids known by name; keep the father (who should spend) attached to the responsibility; and keep the women with an evidence against the husband if he ran away. All are problems the west is so drenched in; and I keep Eminem to rap some facts about how sick he is, and how sick is his "faggot father" is:





Quote: That's nice, but what about contractless sex?

I don't want to be "the faggot father"; I know I can't have kids when I'm broke; I know that I love bareback sex; And I know that I will resist doing it.
"Haram" for the sake of the unborn. I personally think that homosexuality might be lesser in sin than throwing a soul in the garbage.

Quote: I consider your care predictably manufactured and entirely off subject, a subject which -you- proposed....actually.

How? I don't have a proper example; so I presented myself as one.
You can consider what you consider; it's a subjective opinion after all !

Quote:Objective morality isn't based on a large weight of subjective opinion, nor does it need to be solely determined by a specific conclusion of any given act. Most objective moral systems allow for consequentalist and deontological ethics (and more as well). Both the consequences of our actions and any duties we may perceive as relevant. They can even, as Benny mentioned above, include subjective perceptions as modifying factors in consequence and duty.

Morals need people to adapt them. For a moral code to become religions or cultures we need more than two believers in the moral code. Each agreed to the moral code based on their subjective opinion.
When the subjective opinion of so many change; a revolution on that culture-religion comes; change. To cause a revolution over the moral code of a culture; you change the subjective opinions of the people.


That's why you get people like me; Muslims who defy the Sunni and Shiite ways for example.

(October 31, 2017 at 1:02 am)Khemikal Wrote: Why, is there some unspoken requirement that you be an intelligently created thing in order to feel good or bad?  If you found out tomorrow that you were not an intelligently created thing..do you think that you'd suddenly stop feeling either emotion?

The "need" is the cause of that requirement. We as humans need food, drink, air and even social interactions, and from these needs a portion of humans tend to think that an intelligent designer must be there to ensure the delivery of the answers to these needs.

the "if" cannot be authentic without a designer. The constants and variables of the universe would differ drastically if things were random. We won't be according to most interpretations.

Quote:From another angle, if this ability is written in at birth, it certainly seems that the focus (and strength) of this ability is not. Is that indicative of poor or unintelligent design?

Maybe a designer who is pushing humanity inside a filter called life? a design with ups and downs to write upon the person their deeds; either good or bad. Satan already rebelled against the standards of the designer; so humans were given the right to either rebel or submit; too.


Quote:-and from the most relevant angle.....that was an awfully quick leap to "goddidit" from morality. From the standpoint of objective moral values god is an irrelevance. Supposing god did create us, he created us such that we were capable of recognizing and assessing moral facts of a matter...which we would be capable of doing if we were "built this way" regardless of who or what built us this way.

Capable; but always have a choice to either do or not do.
It's about choosing your moral code. Humans got split in choice; from the Adam-Eve sin and repent, to Judaism, Christianity,Islam, non belief...etc. The choices are so many; and the models are also so many.

We are created capable, so we can choose. Or in other words; so we will be filtered in this life; then go to either heaven or hell depending on our deeds.
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#7
RE: Morality
You seem to be able to think rationally and critically about everything besides islam. Brainwashed. But I know you'll be able to break free.

Anyway, more on topic, yes I think morality is subjective and I agree with the point you're trying to make. Please just don't go quoting the quran and claiming because morality is subjective there is a god and heaven and hell etc.

In fact, let's use your example about having sex without being married.

Do you not partake in this because of fear of hell or because of the actual reason you mentioned? Or maybe your fear of hell has tricked you into making up the reason and justification in the first place? What about atheists who don't have children before marriage? I think you have a long way before jumping into the "god did it" line. Maybe your point was just to say that morality is subjective and nothing related to religion (if so I apologise)
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#8
RE: Morality
(October 30, 2017 at 11:41 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: I don't know anything about philosophy; and I'll be a liar if I said that I'm interested in it. To me; life is pretty much obvious; the shortest simple path is always the correct one; so no need for mazes and complications of what is simple.
I need money. You have money. I kill you and take your money. Short and simple. 
Moral? Correct?
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#9
RE: Morality
(October 31, 2017 at 1:00 am)AtlasS33 Wrote:
(October 31, 2017 at 12:04 am)bennyboy Wrote: Objectivity and subjectivity aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.  Subjectivity means you experience a moral sense.  But there is still plenty of objective truth behind morality: DNA, brain structure, environmental conditions and so on.

You can both say, "I cannot imagine allowing a child to be harmed," and also identify brain structures and processes involved when someone thinks about the protection of young people.

Emotions and their production are written in out DNA, meaning that "feeling bad" or feeling "guilty" about something is pretty much a given ability since birth. To me; that's more of a pointing to an intelligent designer behind our existence.

I sometimes consider consciousness itself in that regard: why would a purely mechanical universe have consciousness at all?  However, I don't think the specific details of an organism's consciousness show intelligent design.  It seems to me an intelligent designer wouldn't need to leave a string of lesser-designed organisms before us.  Nor do humans seem to be anything like perfectly designed-- if the goal is perfection, an intelligent designer might have fast-forwarded to a model much superior to humanity.
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#10
RE: Morality
Our species behaviors are not handed down to us from above, nor are they in old mythology.

Unfortunately cruelty and force can and do work in evolution. But just as much so does compassion and cooperation.

I think the more humans that view our behaviors as in us, and not handed down to us, the more we can see ourselves as being the same species and not a separate species.

Every nation worldwide has both hospitals and prisons.
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