RE: Subjective Morality?
October 15, 2018 at 11:52 pm
(This post was last modified: October 16, 2018 at 12:10 am by mfigurski80.
Edit Reason: Readability
)
(October 15, 2018 at 11:44 pm)wyzas Wrote:(October 15, 2018 at 11:09 pm)mfigurski80 Wrote: Oh. The article. Very well:
"The [objective] object is something that presumably exists independent of the subject’s perception of it. " (https://www.iep.utm.edu/objectiv/)
Honestly, I just google 'objectivism philosophical definition', and this one had the cleanest description, but I'm glad it did turn out to be apologetic; it seems to demonstrate prejudice that you seem to have against theist thought. As an atheist, I would image you believe any rationality is a step in the right direction, although I understand you may have reservations against using pieces of apologetic thought in a secular conversation.
I hope you realize how much you depend on ideas religious people had though... even if delusional about some things, theists can still bring about productive science. For example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_clergy_scientists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lay_Catholic_scientists
In my opinion, truth is truth no matter who utters it or how they got to it. But maybe thats just my objectivism talking.
EDIT:
"Differing opinions with regard to a moral statement makes that statement subjective"
No it doesn't. Given both/either of the philosophical definitions I have provided, an objective morality would be absolutely plausible should there be different opinions about it.
Objective morality (hypothetically, if it exist) has definite correct and incorrect positions, just like science. By definition, that's what the 'objective' in front of 'morality' is for.
"OK, give me a precise and narrowly defined example of a "truth value absolutely separate from perception" that applies to morals."
... After you give me a precise and narrowly defined matrix of the position of every single subatomic particle in your body.
Likewise, objective moral definitions are extremely hard to provide and extremely easy to find minute errors in... this doesn't mean they don't exist.
Re killing: you're mistaken. To paraphrase: killing is okay in certain situations, not okay in others.
Again, since objective morality works like objective science, this would be akin to saying that: some functions have a limit at x=0, others don't. Nothing subjective about it. Very specific though.
Just to reiterate: differing interpretations do not prove subjectivity. Complicated and situationally specific results do not prove subjectivity.
Like, please stop trying to demonstrate either of these, it's logically impossible
What makes you think I care about what religion a scientists is. Does not matter as long as the science is correct and they don't interject religion/god.
Why are you going back to science with the "subatomic particle" crap. You wanted to discuss moral(s) not science. If there are errors (great or small) in objective morals then they are not objective.
But now that I understand that you are religious, I'm not surprised that you continue the theist dance/dodge.
Interesting ad hominem setup there.
Also, you self-contradict in the span of 3 really short paragraphs:
"what religion a scientists is. Does not matter as long as the science is correct" ... "I'm not surprised that you continue the theist dance/dodge."
In the second phrase, you are clearly dismissing my explanations (which, notice, do not depend on any theistic precepts) based on your perception of my religion. In the first phrase, you claim that religion is irrelevant as long as the explanations are sound. Did you unabashedly lie in the first part, or in the second part?
"Why are you going back to science with the "subatomic particle" crap. You wanted to discuss moral(s) not science. If there are errors (great or small) in objective morals then they are not objective."
Let me re-reiterate.
Objective (adjective) - "The [objective] object is something that presumably exists independent of the subject's perception of it".
NOTE: An objective object presumably exists independent of one's perception of it!!!!!
Therefore:
An objective sequence of positions of the subatomic particles of your body presumably exist independent of one's perception of it
An objective morality presumably exists independent of one's perception of it.
Therefore:
Errors within one's perception of the objective sequence of positions of the subatomic particles of your body do not influence it's objective state and existence.
Errors within one's perception of objective morality do not influence it's objective state and existence.
NOTE: Errors within one's perception don't influence objective facts!!!
You're arguing with really straight logic here -- I'm not sure what else you're trying to find. This is as clear as I can make it.