The issue is simple. Are the MORALS THEMSELVES, the specific moral ideas, represented in the objective world beyond the subjective agent, in things or their properties? That's it. Is there something about any object or situation which represents a right or a wrong, without the evaluation of that agent?
I've literally never argued that there aren't mind independent facts which support ought positions, because I was never talking about that. I've always, from the start, been talking about where those ought positions originally come from. Why are there ought positions at all, rather than a lack of them?
I'll leave with a repeat of an earlier comment. By your goofy comments, the following is true:
-The smell of shit is a "beauty fact" if somebody finds shit beautiful.
-The sound of a screaming girl is a "happiness fact" if a murderer enjoys what he does.
-The Universe is a collection of "religious facts" if someone holds God as real.
Unless you find shit beautiful, or murder enjoyable, or hold God as real, then those objects and states are not "beauty facts," "happiness facts" or "religious facts." This is because those things are simple facts, and the evaluations are IN YOU, not in them.
Unless you can actually demonstrate that any physical object, state, or situation can only sensibly be morally viewed in one way, then I'm just going to say-- I understand your words, and I (subjectively mind you), have found them nigh on worthless. Good luck with that.
I've literally never argued that there aren't mind independent facts which support ought positions, because I was never talking about that. I've always, from the start, been talking about where those ought positions originally come from. Why are there ought positions at all, rather than a lack of them?
I'll leave with a repeat of an earlier comment. By your goofy comments, the following is true:
-The smell of shit is a "beauty fact" if somebody finds shit beautiful.
-The sound of a screaming girl is a "happiness fact" if a murderer enjoys what he does.
-The Universe is a collection of "religious facts" if someone holds God as real.
Unless you find shit beautiful, or murder enjoyable, or hold God as real, then those objects and states are not "beauty facts," "happiness facts" or "religious facts." This is because those things are simple facts, and the evaluations are IN YOU, not in them.
Unless you can actually demonstrate that any physical object, state, or situation can only sensibly be morally viewed in one way, then I'm just going to say-- I understand your words, and I (subjectively mind you), have found them nigh on worthless. Good luck with that.
