(December 7, 2018 at 5:12 am)pocaracas Wrote:(December 6, 2018 at 5:14 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: I like your thinking, so +1 in my book.
My answer to your question is that I couldn't rule out either, and I don't think I could be intellectually honest to myself if I did.
In absolute terms, you're right.
But one must be pragmatic at some point.
Otherwise, we end up getting stuck in a never-ending need to be intellectually honest and take each and every claim as if they could be true, including claims we typically assume are fictitious, like the Force, or magic, or superman, etc...
Just like we don't devote undue effort into looking for evidence of the Force nor magic, so too I think we should expend undue effort into the question of a divine creator entity.
Clearly, if there is such an entity, the information about it was conveyed to mankind in a pre-scientific era, and even pre-written-word era. If that was done, then it can and should be reproducible in a scientific era. The fact that such conveying of information has been eluding the scientific endeavor is a hint at the fictional nature of the original information regarding the divine.
(December 6, 2018 at 5:14 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: Maybe there's some balance between the two ideas even if the solution is currently being overlooked. That's why I believe it's important to continue to explore things, but with limited bias. If you take an atheist and a theist, and they work together to both determine and rule out things, then we further our capacity to have better human relationships.
Some balance, yes... but I'm not sure a 50/50 split is the most adequate course of action.
(December 6, 2018 at 5:14 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: To say one is greater, I would need to prescribe some type of value to both, but I don't think it's necessary. If both exist, then there may be an agreement or relationship between the two that I would want to understand.
Well, one can apply real-world hints and extrapolations into ascertaining that value... or one can go with intuition. Traditionally, people have gone with intuition and that has led to the growth of religions and the pervasiveness of religious belief, often to the culling of those who lack such belief.
(December 6, 2018 at 5:14 pm)T0 Th3 M4X Wrote: In which case I would not only want quantitative data, but qualitative data as well. Same thing as going into a jungle and living in a tribe of monkeys. I could go in there and learn things, and I wouldn't have to apply any numerical value for anything, but rather observe how they treat me and how my relationship to them changes. Maybe they adopt me as one of their own. Maybe there's some conflict I have with the alpha. Maybe as time goes on those relationships change. That alpha could hate me, but conforming to him some may lead to acceptance. So in regard to the universe or a divine entity, hopefully I can respect both, and likewise both can respect me in their own capacity.
hmm... I see your point, but... empty space-time, as far as we can tell, has no intentionality. Things just happen in their Quantum randomness (which average out to our deterministic point of view).
Without intentionality, I don't think it can respect you at all. But the people who support such a view sure can respect you, whatever your view is.
I still like your thinking. I agree with basically everything you said. I think the issue though is with the 50/50 split. It's hard to assign values to either, and with the assumption that some harmony may exist between the two, I think it would be even more difficult without further knowledge on the potential relationship. But that's why I suggested a qualitative approach. Just like that interaction I used as an example with the monkeys. If I establish a relationship, then it should become easier to gain quantitative information later on, because I can more clearly define that relationship. I like numbers as answers to problem, but sometimes they're not the best option, because even though they are necessary part of our lives, sometimes a 1 or 2 can't be descriptive or precise enough about human experience. If I say something was a "10" or that I was "blown away" by it, I would think in many cases the latter would better for explaining how I view an event or experience.