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Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
#1
Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
Dr Long has the largest database of 1600 NDEs, and he claims that all of the OBEs he has tested yield 97.5% accuracy. One example is a man who had cardiac arrest, was able to see a nurse clean his mouth with specifically a pink cloth, he was able to identify which doctor out of 3 was shining a light in his eyes, and he saw a nervous looking woman staring from behind curtains at the procedure. He was able to identify the woman was blonde, and that was all true. Dr. Long also states that only 1 in 1000 report any awareness during anesthesia. How then, did he have 20 out of 200 cases where people under anesthesia were able to have OBEs? Dr. Penny Sartori, another researcher and medical doctor, says that she has had cases of hallucinations which are fragmented, and they are confusing, while NDErs and OBErs have clearer than normal perceptions and visions. According to Dr. Long, 76% of experiencers claimed that they had more vivid visions than real life. 
How could people make so many of these accurate out of body claims at a time that their brain flat lined, which by the way, according to neurosciences, is proof the brain can no longer create clear imagery to people who have little to no brain activity? Do you think these claims prove there is afterlife?

an interesting quote by Dr. Long during an interview about a debate he had with another doctor who claimed people can have these experiences under anesthesia: As an overview, let me say that these anesthetic-awareness experiences are so very, very rare that I hope this never dissuades anybody from having medically appropriate general anesthesia. Please don’t let any of the discussion here be an issue in preventing appropriate medical care.
As I say in the book, and this is a direct quote, “Rather than the type of coherent NDEs you read here, anesthetic-awareness results in a totally different experience.” And I provide a number of references on that, by the way, for interested listeners.
I go on to say, “Those who experience anesthetic-awareness often report very unpleasant, painful and frightening experiences. Unlike NDEs which are predominately visual experiences, this partial awakening during anesthesia more often involves brief and fragmented experiences that may involve hearing but usually not vision.” Again, I emphasize that anesthetic-awareness is very rare under anesthesia.
By the way, I’m not aware of any near-death experiences that occurred under general anesthesia on the NDERF website that described the typical content of anesthetic-awareness experiences. Dr. Woerlee brings up a few anecdotal discussions about anesthetic-awareness but I have a number of references. These are the scholarly people that have actually studied a number of anesthetic-awareness experiences and published them in peer-reviewed journals in the past. That’s my source of that.
As all of your listeners can easily see, you just don’t have near-death experiences that are predominately hearing but no vision. You don’t essentially ever have near-death experiences that involve brief, fragmented experiences that are painful or frightening. In fact, none of the general anesthesia near-death experiences that I reviewed had any of those components of them. Really, there’s no doubt about that.
These are completely different experiences. That being anesthetic-awareness and near-death experiences. I don’t think Dr. Woerlee quite got that point how clear that was; how crystal clear the distinction between those two types of experiences is.

What do you think of this?
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#2
RE: Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
I think Jeffrey Long is just one of all too many people who can't see the forest for the NDEs.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#3
RE: Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
No amount of evidence, however carefully controlled or well-documented, will convince skeptics that NDE's pose a challenge to their unproven metaphysical assumption of physical causal closure.
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#4
RE: Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
(April 26, 2017 at 7:31 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: No amount of evidence, however carefully controlled or well-documented, will convince skeptics that NDE's pose a challenge to their unproven metaphysical assumption of physical causal closure.

Or to be more accurate, no amount of your bullshit will prove your bullshit to be anything other than bullshit.
You see, one thing is: I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing.
I think it's much more interesting to live not knoing than to have answers which might be wrong.
Richard Feynman

Well the sorrow the suffering the glory the pain
The killing the dying was all done in vain
For young Willy Mc Bride it all happened again
And again,and again,and again,and again

Eric Bogle Green Fields of France
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#5
RE: Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
(April 26, 2017 at 7:31 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: No amount of evidence, however carefully controlled or well-documented, will convince skeptics that NDE's pose a challenge to their unproven metaphysical assumption of physical causal closure.

But the trouble is, there is no evidence supporting the metaphysical contention that NDEs have anything other than a physical cause.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#6
RE: Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
NDE proves NDE not the absurd idea your mind is separate from you body
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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#7
RE: Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
What do I think of it all? Well, the concept itself is of course highly interesting, but then this bit;

(April 26, 2017 at 7:24 pm)Manga Wrote: he claims

kind of stick in my craw. Anyone can claim anything about anything. Show me an actual peer-reviewed compendium of work that unravels this bit by bit, and then you'll go a long way to convincing me.

TL;DR - he's trying to sell a book. Not worth my time.
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If you have any serious concerns, are being harassed, or just need someone to talk to, feel free to contact me via PM
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#8
RE: Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
We don't need your bullshit religion to account for the phenomenon.

https://www.seeker.com/near-death-experi...14593.html


Quote: For many people, and the religious in particular, the phenomenon of near-death experience - assuming it's real and not simply a result of a dying brain's hallucinatory interpretation of a flood of brain chemicals - validates their belief in the afterlife and heaven. Many books have been written by people who claim to have come back from the brink of death and seen God and heaven (though earlier this year the best-selling memoir "The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven" was admitted by its author to have been faked).

Scientific evidence, however, suggests that the experience is not a spiritual or metaphysical one, but instead a chemical one.


There really is nothing sadder than a jesus freak seeking validation for his/her bullshit.
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#9
RE: Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
I don't see NDEs as any kind of evidence even if they are real. You are not dead during an NDE, your brain is just starting to shut down. Whose to say that this "NDE" isn't just a massive burst of brain chemicals, perhaps the brain just fighting to stay alive as a last-ditch effort?
"Adulthood is like looking both ways before you cross the road, and then getting hit by an airplane"  - sarcasm_only

"Ironically like the nativist far-Right, which despises multiculturalism, but benefits from its ideas of difference to scapegoat the other and to promote its own white identity politics; these postmodernists, leftists, feminists and liberals also use multiculturalism, to side with the oppressor, by demanding respect and tolerance for oppression characterised as 'difference', no matter how intolerable."
- Maryam Namazie

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#10
RE: Dr. Long proves life after death or no?
(April 26, 2017 at 7:31 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: No amount of evidence, however carefully controlled or well-documented, will convince skeptics that NDE's pose a challenge to their unproven metaphysical assumption of physical causal closure.

How would you know, Chad? The field of NDE research is rife with misrepresentations and baseless speculation. What you object to is not the skeptic's reluctance to let go of causal closure, but their unwillingness to do so along the lines mapped out by your ideological commitments. It's unclear what, if anything, NDEs mean. What's clear, however, is that we will never find out as a result of putting your presuppositions ahead of the science. Survivalism is an ideology more than it is a hypothesis. Most survivalists are every bit as stubborn in the other direction, failing to accept that NDEs might indicate something other than survival of a 'soul'.

(April 5, 2017 at 5:59 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:
(April 4, 2017 at 10:55 am)Little Rik Wrote: Evidence that the consciousness never die is given by thousand of NDEs.

Quote:(5) Melvin Morse reports an NDE where a young girl sees her teacher by her body during an OBE when her teacher is not actually there. This case also has other hallucinatory features, such as encountering doctors in an ostensibly transcendental realm:

[O]ne child.... could see her own body as doctors wearing green masks tried to start an IV. Then she saw her living teacher and classmates at her bedside, comforting her and singing to her (her teacher did not visit her in the hospital). Finally, three tall beings dressed in white that she identified as doctors asked her to push a button on a box at her bedside, telling her that if she pressed the green button she could go with them, but she would never see her family again. She pressed the red button and regained consciousness (Morse 68-69).

(6) Using open-ended questions, Morse also found a case where a child that was clinically dead reported that while she was 'above her body' looking down, "her mother's nose appeared flattened and distorted 'like a pig monster'" (Morse 67).

(7) The Fenwicks recount an NDE where the NDEr 'observed' a procedure that never took place during the heart bypass operation she underwent at the time:

[S]he left her body and watched her heart lying beside her body, bumping away with what looked like ribbons coming from it to hands. In fact, this is not what happens in a heart bypass operation, as the heart is left within the chest and is never taken outside the body (Fenwick and Fenwick 193).

The Fenwicks try to explain away this major discrepancy by pointing out that ribbons are indeed tied to arteries during an operation of this sort and by attributing the false perception to misidentification. However, it is difficult to see how a person truly out-of-body with vivid perceptual capabilities could confuse arteries (ribboned or not) with a beating heart lying next to her outside of her body. In the remainder of her experience this NDEr reported 'traveling' to a place that looked like an enormous silver 'airplane hangar' with tiny figures off in the distance, miles away.

(8) Other NDErs have reported seeing friends out-of-body with them who are, in reality, still alive and normally conscious. The Evergreen Study also recorded a clearly hallucinatory near-death experience after a major car accident:

Well, then I remember, not physical bodies but like holding hands, the two of us, up above the trees. It was a cloudy day, a little bit of clouds. And thinking here we go, we're going off into eternity... and then bingo, I snapped my eyes open and I looked over and he was staring at me [ellipsis original] (Lindley, Bryan, and Conley 110).

The authors of the study go on to write: "In this incident a woman had lost consciousness but her male companion had not. In the experience, she perceived the two of them in an out-of-body state, yet her friend never blacked out" (110).

https://infidels.org/library/modern/keit...crepancies

It's a simple fact, either NDEs are all real, or they're all hallucinatory. You don't get to say that some are real, while some are not. They are all the same type of event. They're either ALL real, or they're ALL false. You don't get to pick and choose and say that while a few are clearly hallucinatory, these others over here are clearly real. Since there are documented NDEs that are clearly hallucinatory, the only logical conclusion is that they are all hallucinatory.

Quote: In a study of 264 subjects with sleep paralysis[3], Giorgio Buzzi and Fabio Cirignotta found that about 11% of their subjects (28 people) "viewed themselves lying on the bed, generally from a location above the bed" (Buzzi 2116). As Buzzi points out, however, these out-of-body experiences often included false perceptions of the physical environment:

I invited these people to do the following simple reality tests: trying to identify objects put in unusual places; checking the time on the clock; and focusing on a detail of the scene, and comparing it with reality.

I received a feedback [sic] from five individuals. Objects put in unusual places (eg, on top of the wardrobe) were never identified during out-of-body experiences. Clocks also proved to be unreliable: a woman with nightly episodes of sleep paralysis had two out-of-body experiences in the same night, and for each the clock indicated an impossible time.... Finally, in all cases but one, some slight but important differences in the details were noted: "I looked at 'me' sleeping peacefully in the bed while I wandered about. Trouble is the 'me' in the bed was wearing long johns ... I have never worn such a thing" (Buzzi 2116-2117).

Buzzi concludes that because these experiences contained out-of-body discrepancies and failed his other 'reality tests,' his subjects' out-of-body imagery must have been derived from memory and imagination rather than from the physical environment at the time (2117).

https://infidels.org/library/modern/keit...HNDEs.html
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