Morality

[Agnostico]

@ Jörmungandr

I don’t recall why I listed u as a troll but u do make some interesting points like these which are worthy of a response I think.

I haven't read your articles either, though I appreciate the links. For many centuries, China ran on Confucian principles and before that was heavily influenced by non-religious philosophy during a period of philosophical flourishing during the Axial age. China functioned quite well in the area of law both before and after unification without any need for Christianity. As Wikipedia notes, "With particular emphasis on the importance of the family and social harmony, rather than on an otherworldly source of spiritual values, the core of Confucianism is humanistic." That pretty much puts a nail in the thesis that society depends upon Christianity for a concept of law

That’s not what I said. Im just saying that the law in western societies are founded on Christianity and that other societies are based on other religions.
I just had a look at the definition of “religion” and found that it’s not strictly defined. It can include a God, which I think most people here view it as.
Or it doesn’t have to include a God which is the way I view it.

As with Confucianism, a concept of duty and order are all that are required and those can be derived from secular sources

Confucianism qualifies as a religion under my interpretation. It wasn’t derived from secular sources but religious ones. I’ll add the link to the article of this quote. Its an interesting read

“Confucianism is often characterized as a system of social and ethical philosophy rather than a religion. In fact, Confucianism built on an ancient religious foundation to establish the social values, institutions, and transcendent ideals of traditional Chinese society."
"The founder of Confucianism, Master Kong (K'ung, Confucius, 551-479 B.C.E.) did not intend to found a new religion, but to interpret and revive the unnamed religion of the Zhou (Chou) dynasty”
https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/F...ianism.htm

So even though Confucianism doesn't qualify as a religion under your interpretation it is still built on religious foundations.
If Atheism was to now publish a system of social and ethical standards it still wouldn't be secular based. It would be based on the existing religious morals. Just like Confucianism was.

U might argue that Confucianism is a form of atheism seeing both don’t believe in Gods. I would have to agree i guess. People who follow Confucianism are in fact atheists. So the differences are these social and moral standards which Confucianism has. Atheism only needs this for it to be taken seriously enough to build a society on. At the moment its just a bunch of subjective opinions which differ from one another.

Wikipedia notes, "With particular emphasis on the importance of the family and social harmony, rather than on an otherworldly source of spiritual values, the core of Confucianism is humanistic."

"The importance of family and social harmony"
For me this is the key to society. And I see these reflected in all the successful religions in the world wheather they worship a god or not.
The importance of family, which I've conveyed in so many ways here,  is no where to be seen in modern athesists minds.
Nor is social harmony. These are morals that are formed with these objectives of a sustainable society. Forget about the whole God debate, its a dead end trust me. I don't claim to be all knowing and enlightened, far from it. Im just saying this is the subject where its at, not God. People just aren't looking at it this way.
I don't think Ive ever heard Sam Harris talk about morals from this perspective. Its always from a personal subjective view point.

I theorize that mankind were originally atheists and that these religions or moral standards were created (from secular foundations u could say) to form sustainable societies. They hold humans accountable for instinctive behaviours that weren't compatible to the success of a society.

I encourage people to learn about "human nature" a branch of psycology. No one has used any of its facts.
I was labelled a chadcell or something for using this science. And take a close look at societies in the animal world.

Brian37 said that the groups formed by chimps are in fact religions if u define it as simply a group. An interesting thought which I took on board.
I used to wonder why no other animals had religions but B37 got me looking at that differently. His theory was unlike anyone eles here and I was so glad that someone was on my page. Thats why I was his hostile respose was so dissapointing after I basically agreed with him and praised his theory on page 3 of this thread. I couldn't believe it. I agreed with someone yet they still dragged me through the mud.

The relationship between the law in the U.S. and Christianity is a contingent one, not a necessary one, so it's entirely possible that law in the U.S. would have developed just fine based upon some other cultural source other than Christianity

I said the law in western societies are founded on Christianity. I never said it was necessary.
And yes I agree that the USA could have developed under the moral stuctucture of another culture.

So we are in agreement on a few things.
The USA was founded on Christian morals.
Christianity is not required to maintain a society.
A God is not required to form moral standards in a society.
The USA didn't require Christian morals.
USA could have formed under the moral guidlines of another culture.
China didn't need Christianity or a God to form their society.

Ur the third person Iv reached out to now who has some views similar to mine. 3rd time lucky...
Hope for the best, expect the worse.