DNA Proves Existence of a Designer

[LadyForCamus]

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Okay, so I have two follow-up questions.  I’m assuming for my inquiry that you agree that rare medical phenomena occur that are unrelated to god.  If you don’t agree, please do correct me:

1. If rare medical phenomena occur that are unrelated to god (cancers going into remission, people coming out of comas against the odds, etc.), by what method can we distinguish between rare recoveries with natural causes, and miraculous recoveries caused by god?

2. If a Christian and a Muslim can both use miraculous healings as evidence for god, yet conclude mutually exclusive gods, what do you think that means about the reliability of that method?



That’s terrifying. Both my parents are still healthy as horses. I can’t imagine even having to think or worry about such a thing as a child.  I’m sorry you and your mom had to go through that. As a parent it makes me so sad to know children have to suffer those kinds of losses. It seems unfair somehow.  I’m glad your dad is okay though.  


I agree with you that it seems intuitive, especially at a young age, to ask those questions under such circumstances, though I think it’s important to consider all possible answers. To me, one possible answer is, ‘it just happened’, though I understand why that’s not necessarily a satisfying one for many people.

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Sorry for the slow response. I decided to take a couple days as a breather from this place.  Although I enjoy a lot of the conversations, it can be a bit over the top at times, so for my own good I needed to step back.  Had to go back and find your post as well.

I'll try to provide thoughtful answers, but if I don't tough on something, feel free to follow up.  I also agree with your statement about rare phenomena being natural.

1. I'm mostly speaking subjectively here, so please keep that in mind.  I think that once you see something at what would be considered the "point of no return" and that somehow changes with no apparent natural explanation, then it becomes a piece of a larger puzzle.  He had what was called "Wegener's Granulomatosis", which is an autoimmune disease that constricts the blood vessels and as such it begins to shutdown various organs.  He was in an advanced stage of this, and I believe the prognosis was less than 30 days.  It was also over 30 years ago when there were less known treatment options. I think I mentioned earlier that he had to go to another state so they could administer an experimental treatment.  Addtionally, he was getting blood transfusions.  When everything was thought to have failed, the doctors were the ones who prayed for him.  From that moment, he began to recover.  Maybe a year or two later, it had completely vanished and he was back to work.  He went back and worked about another 25 years, until he retired around age 72-73. A little bit grumpier than he used to be, but regardless, he's still around.  In fact, visited me yesterday.  So to answer your question more directly, I don't know that there is, or even has to be, a method to distinguish.  If something happens, we just measure it against ourselves and do our best to understand.  Over the course of life, hopefully that leads us down a path we are content with.

Sorry for my tardy response!  The holidays were a blur, as I'm sure you can relate! So, I'm hoping that you don't mind if I critique some of the logic you've laid out in your response above.  Please understand, I am not criticizing you as a person, nor your emotions as they relate to this experience with your dad.  I don't find pleasure in putting others down, but I do think that it is fair to critique an idea or a belief, which is what I will do here. Though you did not explicitly state as such, you seem to be suggesting that because your father recovered after the doctors began praying for him, this would indicate that the cause of his subsequent recovery was the prayer itself.  I'm not sure if you are familiar with logical fallacies, but there is one here.  In plain language, this is a, 'after it, therefore because of it', fallacy.  In other words, just because event B follows event A, this does not necessarily mean that event A caused event B.  You would need some supporting evidence for this proposition, and/or be able to demonstrate that you have ruled out other possible causes for your father's recovery; for example, a currently unknown, yet natural cause. This point circle's us back to my original question to you: how can we determine what point is the "point of no return", as you put it? Since we both agree that rare, naturally caused medical phenomena do occur, by what method can we reach the conclusion that an affliction is 'beyond the point of a rare, yet naturally caused healing, and requires a miracle?'  If we have no method by which to make this distinction, than we can never reasonably conclude that a miracle had to be the cause. We can’t even conclude that was most likely the cause. Does that make sense?  Would you agree with me when I say that a reliable methodology is crucial to reaching conclusions that are highly likely to be true?

2. I think it reflects genuine love for the human condition from God (if you will).  If just for the sake of discussion, we assume God, and we see a belief from various backgrounds that He does intervene very directly at times, then maybe it would be better to understand why it is like that.  My belief (again subjective) is that there is a greater understanding of where we are at as individuals, rather than just being bound by our interest in a religion of ideology.  I know everybody doesn't accept the Bible, but if we go by it, then a woman named Rahab, who was regarded as a prostitute and a harlot, through an act of faithfulness, managed to end up being the great great great great great etc... grandmother of Jesus.   Of course some may say "it didn't happen", but if it did, then for me I can consider it, and that is another piece that can go into that larger puzzle.

Just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly: you're saying that these experiences and interventions by god, don't necessarily lead people to a specific religion, but rather, to the more general notion that things happen to us for a reason that is important to our own individual experience with god. Would that be a correct summation of what you said above?  Please correct me if I've misunderstood.  I think that, as you said, if we assume for the sake of the argument that a personal god does exist, and does intervene in the lives of humans, than your point is a reasonable one, yes. 

Feel free to respond at your leisure, and I hope you had a nice Christmas!

I appreciate your questions and your kindness.  If you would like me to clarify or expand on anything feel free to ask.  Also, can you share a little about your background in terms of life, religion, atheism, or whatever it is you define yourself by? Thanks.

Well, I'm married with two young boys.  I'm a dietitian, but currently a stay-at-home mom for the kids until everyone is in school.  I was raised Christian (Episcopalian), but Christianity fell apart for me in my late teens.  I was in sort of the, "I'm not sure what's out there, but I'm not really interested in thinking about it too hard" camp until about a year after the birth of my first son.  For some reason I started spending many nights awake perseverating on that very question, and I came to the conclusion that I didn't have any reasons or evidence to hold onto a belief in god, and it just sort of fell away.  I grieved that loss for a long time, but this community has helped me process that grief, and has been personally fulfilling on a number of levels.  The people here have become an important part of my life.  Hope that helps you understand me a little better!  What about you? Any kids?  What do you do?  Do you identify as a member of a specific religion?